M100CUP - RB 182 Sprint and Hillclimb Car

[McGherkin]

That Railton is lovely.

Nice updates! Ref. Avon Rise/Quarry I think it depends somewhat on which wheel drive, I think FWD you're better off going wide on the entry then taking the straightest possible line on the exit so you can get the power down, whereas with RWD you can be the last of the late brakers and come in tight, letting the power hold you in, so to speak. I really like Combe, it's all about high speed balance, really smooth and flowing. Even the little MX gets up to 110 over the rise!

 

[GrahamV182]

That Railton is lovely.

Nice updates! Ref. Avon Rise/Quarry I think it depends somewhat on which wheel drive, I think FWD you're better off going wide on the entry then taking the straightest possible line on the exit so you can get the power down, whereas with RWD you can be the last of the late brakers and come in tight, letting the power hold you in, so to speak. I really like Combe, it's all about high speed balance, really smooth and flowing. Even the little MX gets up to 110 over the rise!

You make a very valid point .... I hadn't thought about it but there probably is a difference between the best lines for a FWD and a RWD: the instructor who recommended 'straight lining Avon Rise' and entering Quarry 'close to the right' was teaching a pupil in a really fast RWD Caterham. In a lower powered Clio it does make sense to get on the power as quickly as possible as you exit Quarry. And yes, Castle Combe is all about smoothness and flowing through the bends.
Did you see a Clio had a bit of a shunt at Quarry ... yesterday's trackday I believe?

 

[McGherkin]

No, but it's all too common. I usually do some initial braking before the rise, since it's a car I would like to drive home afterwards, but some try to go over then slam on, but generally do so while the car's still light and end up spinning off.

 

[Rob Thomson]

Hi Graham,

Combe's my local track. I've hardly driven it but would love to get it sussed.

Quarry Bend: There seems to be two thoughts about tackling this bend – some say brake early just before Avon Rise and hug the left hand side of the track to give you a wide arc around Quarry – others say try to straight line Avon Rise, braking later and ending up on the right hand side of the track for Quarry. I tried both but couldn't see much difference in times?

I've always been in the 'brake early' camp but at the recent Dick Mayo Sprint I thought I'd try the other approach. I did yet another split-screen video showing my quickest opening lap at the Great Western Sprint in March (top) vs. my quickest run at the Dick Mayo (bottom)...



The 'traffic light' line is definitely quicker. There's a significant difference at the exit of the corner, but that lead's eroded a bit along the next straight as the exit speed is higher with the 'hug the left' line. However, there's much more to be had from the 'traffic light' line by taking an earlier apex and getting on the power sooner, I'm always a bit surprised by how quickly Quarry ends so later on the power than I could be. You just never get time to get it right at a sprint.

See you at Wiscombe!

 

[GrahamV182]

Hi Graham,

Combe's my local track. I've hardly driven it but would love to get it sussed.



I've always been in the 'brake early' camp but at the recent Dick Mayo Sprint I thought I'd try the other approach.

See you at Wiscombe!

Hi Rob .... interesting video
The only thing I can add is that both of those videos are from a standing start..... I think on a flying lap you'll probably be 15 to 20 mph quicker as you approach Avon Rise. But I'm not sure that how much difference that would make ......
See you at sunny Wiscombe.

 

[Rob Thomson]

Very good point - a much bigger 'brave pill' needed to brake after Avon Rise when on a flyer!

 

[GrahamV182]

Wiscombe Park Hillclimb – Sat 2nd Sept 2017

The '5 Clubs' hillclimb weekend is often one of the best events in the southwest – late summer sunshine and lazy days drinking tea and chatting about cars. The beer tent is run by Otter Breweries. But for me it was a mixed day – gear selection problems in practice and quite frankly 'off the pace' for the timed runs in the afternoon.
But it was still great fun …. and good to catch up with lots of friends. Class A3 (Series Production Road Cars up to 2600 cc) had its usual high number of entries – 17 drivers in class. Total of over 120 cars for the event - from huge single seaters to vintage classics.

Lowlight of the day: Nigel Heard wacked his Civic Tyre 'R' into the bank after Bunnies Leap. One Team Dynamics wheel ruined and pride badly dented … please to say that Nigel was all OK.

Highlight of the day: Michael Hall driving his Clio 172 to a podium finish in our class. Cracking time of 47.24 seconds. The 4 wheel drive, turbo'd, Mitsubishi 'Taxis' were the cars to beat and Michael kept them honest with a superb final run.​

I ended up mid table ….. bit miffed as I knew I could do better.

Video of Saturday's last run (slow - yawn)...



Wiscombe Park Hillclimb – Sunday 3rd Sept 2017

A new day dawned ......
It started raining about 7.00 am Sunday morning….. turned into a downpour about 9.00. Yes, Wiscombe is the prettiest course on a fine dry day. But in the heavy rain the grass paddock area with its long grass and huge slope it becomes a treacherous place ….. sheltering under the gazebo about 9.15 we all watched in horror as a car slid down the wet paddock and hit the side of a transit van. OUCH!
I had swapped the semi slick VR2s to my normal road tyres (Rainsport 3) so at least I had some grip through the mud and puddles. Wise move as the forecast was heavy rain all day …..
The event was to be cut short due to the abysmal and dangerous conditions in the paddock – there would only be 2 practice runs and one timed run. All runs continuous with no lunch break, as the forecast was more heavy rain in the afternoon. All credit to the organisers – the attitude was 'lets complete as much as we can, as soon as we can'.

Please to say that the Clio was brilliant in the wet on Rainsport 3's – I managed a second place in class. I managed to beat 4 of the 5 drivers in four wheel drive cars. The rain didn't seem so wet after that

Video of the wet run ….


I think I clipped the bank at Martini hairpin (about 1-20 into the video) but I couldn't see damage.

Sundays results....

 

[imprezaworks]

Looks great fun

 

[GrahamV182]

Looks great fun

Thanks ... yes, it is great fun and very sociable. The videos don't really give an impression of how steep the hill is at Wiscombe.... its 1 in 6 in places.

 

[R29TJR]

Great update as always.

 

[eon172]

Do enjoy the updates on your thread. Wiscombe climb is certainly on my to do list some time in the future. Kudos for your conviction on the wet run [emoji106]

 

[Brushwood69]

Good job Mr Vingoe:up:

 

[David James]

Hi

What a wonderful car

I am thinking if following a similar route with my 172 cup,
I take it rear wiper,fog lights etc have to be on the car?
I see you are struggling with gearbox ratios, would a 172 cup box with its shorter ratios be better?

Do things like battery relocation and race batteries break the rules?

Cheers

 

[shiftspark]

If your in road modified wipers,fogs radio etc have to stay and work. I also think battery relocation is a no as I think they had issues at Harewood at the beginning of this season @bashracing
You can fit a race battery in the standard position anyway.
Cheers

 

[David James]

Ok so I will have to source a rear wiper for my cup as the previous owner ditched it.

I currently have a race battery in the original position so it can stay there.

You can fit fiberglass boot and bonnet in the road modified as long as they don't have vents in and properly secured is this correct?

Thanks for your help guys

 

[bashracing]

As far as I"m aware Colin the battery can be in the passenger compartment as long as it's a sealed gel type battery, but if you if you have heard different I'd appreciate a bit of info on what happened at harewood,

as for the rest of the electrics etc if they were fitted as standard equipment they must remain and work,

all this only seems to really be enforced if you start doing any good or someone takes a dislike to your car,

 

[David James]

As far as I"m aware Colin the battery can be in the passenger compartment as long as it's a sealed gel type battery, but if you if you have heard different I'd appreciate a bit of info on what happened at harewood,

as for the rest of the electrics etc if they were fitted as standard equipment they must remain and work,

all this only seems to really be enforced if you start doing any good or someone takes a dislike to your car,

Well I doubt anyone will be worried about my car or me!
New to motorsport, budget Clio with less power and extras than most and hefty weight penalty in regards driver

 

[Rob Thomson]

Nice write-up Graham. I do love Wiscombe, such a fun and challenging hill in the most beautiful location.

I had a fairly good day on Saturday, I shaved a whole 0.08s off my PB but that was more than enough for maximum points in my championship. On the other hand I was beaten quite significantly by the other two Clios in the class so need to try harder last time. I was even further off the pace on Sunday in the wet but I'll use the excuse that my heart wasn't really in it.

Next stop Shelsley the weekend after next.

Some interesting comments about permitted modifications. I run in the 'Standard Car' part of my championship so mine's just that - bog-standard. However, it's interesting how some people interpret that. At Pembrey in June someone entered the SC class with a tuned Fiesta ST on List 1B tyres. You feel like a bell-end complaining about it, but ultimately it's not difficult to read the Blue Book and SRs and enter a compliant car so I don't have a great deal of sympathy.

 

[David James]

I totally agree the blue book is fairly straightforward but being as I haven't competed I am unsure of tricks of the trade.

 

[GrahamV182]

Nice write-up Graham. I do love Wiscombe, such a fun and challenging hill in the most beautiful location.

I had a fairly good day on Saturday, I shaved a whole 0.08s off my PB but that was more than enough for maximum points in my championship. On the other hand I was beaten quite significantly by the other two Clios in the class so need to try harder last time. I was even further off the pace on Sunday in the wet but I'll use the excuse that my heart wasn't really in it.

Next stop Shelsley the weekend after next.

Some interesting comments about permitted modifications. I run in the 'Standard Car' part of my championship so mine's just that - bog-standard. However, it's interesting how some people interpret that. At Pembrey in June someone entered the SC class with a tuned Fiesta ST on List 1B tyres. You feel like a bell-end complaining about it, but ultimately it's not difficult to read the Blue Book and SRs and enter a compliant car so I don't have a great deal of sympathy.

Hi Rob,
I believe congratulations are in order? Did you win the 2017 Bristol MC Speed championship at the weekend? Well deserved ..... you really get the best out of that little Clio !!!
Looking at your video you are much faster and braver than me at parts of Wiscombe e.g. Bunnies Leap..... but I pull a higher speed going up the big climb to make up for my age related cowardice

 

[GrahamV182]

Hi

What a wonderful car

I am thinking if following a similar route with my 172 cup,
I take it rear wiper,fog lights etc have to be on the car?
I see you are struggling with gearbox ratios, would a 172 cup box with its shorter ratios be better?

Do things like battery relocation and race batteries break the rules?

Cheers

Thanks David..... There is a simple 'guide' to preparing road cars for speed events ... i.e. what's allowed and what's not. It was prepared by one of the local motor clubs for beginners. I will try and dig it out for you and send it to you.
Some clubs also operate a 'buddy' system for your first couple of events - an experienced 'buddy' helping you with preparation, signing on, scrutineering, etc. It's always nice to have a friendly, helping hand for your first event.
Whereabouts are you? What's your local club?
G

 

[Rob Thomson]

Hi Rob,
I believe congratulations are in order? Did you win the 2017 Bristol MC Speed championship at the weekend? Well deserved ..... you really get the best out of that little Clio !!!

Thanks Graham. I'll be honest though and admit that until I read about my victory on Facebook I hadn't heard of the Bristol MC Speed Championship and wasn't aware that I was entered in it!! Haha.

 

[Rob Thomson]

I totally agree the blue book is fairly straightforward but being as I haven't competed I am unsure of tricks of the trade.

Sorry, I hope I didn't come across as being arsey as that wasn't my intent. You'll always get people with non-compliant cars in club motorsport, and nine times out of ten they get away with it. Some are ignorant of the rules, but others do it deliberately. I don't understand why, it can't be very satisfying doing well if you know that you're driving an illegal car, but hey ho.

 

[David James]

Thanks David..... There is a simple 'guide' to preparing road cars for speed events ... i.e. what's allowed and what's not. It was prepared by one of the local motor clubs for beginners. I will try and dig it out for you and send it to you.
Some clubs also operate a 'buddy' system for your first couple of events - an experienced 'buddy' helping you with preparation, signing on, scrutineering, etc. It's always nice to have a friendly, helping hand for your first event.
Whereabouts are you? What's your local club?
G

I am in Maidenhead Berkshire
I am looking to join the ACSMC as most events seam close.

 

[David James]

Sorry, I hope I didn't come across as being arsey as that wasn't my intent. You'll always get people with non-compliant cars in club motorsport, and nine times out of ten they get away with it. Some are ignorant of the rules, but others do it deliberately. I don't understand why, it can't be very satisfying doing well if you know that you're driving an illegal car, but hey ho.

Not at all. I am very great full for the help. I want to make sure I have a competitive car but I totally agree in keeping in the rule books.
Are LSD, cams etc allowed in this category?

 

[shiftspark]

Yes cams diffs different final drive ratios the list goes on but sadly so does the £££££
@bashracing i will pm so not to clog the tread up.

 

[GrahamV182]

Not at all. I am very great full for the help. I want to make sure I have a competitive car but I totally agree in keeping in the rule books.
Are LSD, cams etc allowed in this category?

It depends what category / class you want to enter: remember that the MSA define the broad categories and then clubs use these categories to define classes for their events:

• Standard category - cams LSD etc not allowed.
• Road Going Series Production Category - yes, allowed (and exhaust, coilovers, brake upgrades, some fibreglass, etc but must have a CAT, tax, mot, insurance)
• Modified Series Production Category - yes allowed (and plastic windows, seats removed etc but then you need MSA roll cage and HANS device).

Rob ' s car is to Standard Category on list 1A tyres .... mine is to Road Going Series Production Category on list 1B tyres. The bugger beat me on Saturday !!!!!

 

[David James]

That is mighty achievement beating such a well setup car with more power and a LSD with better tyres!
Very well done.

 

[Rob Thomson]

Rob ' s car is to Standard Category on list 1A tyres .... mine is to Road Going Series Production Category on list 1B tyres. The bugger beat me on Saturday !!!!!

No I didn't, you were 8 tenths faster!

You were LOADS quicker than me in the wet.

 

[m&l172ph1]

Next stop Shelsley the weekend after next.

What's on at Shelsley?

Don't live to far from there now.
Just finished putting together the Frogeye sprite that was on top gear a few years back that was up against the boyed up 306! After it's had a few set backs including a workshop fire.

 

[Rob Thomson]

What's on at Shelsley?

It's their "Autumn Speed Finale" meeting ("pre-finale" on the Saturday) - http://www.shelsleywalsh.com/events/

I'll be competing on both days as they're rounds of my championship (the Welsh Sprint and Hillclimb Championship). Fingers crossed for decent weather!

 

[marc1330]

Always enjoy Wiscombe. I was spectating last Saturday nice to be stood on the other side and enjoy a beer!! I'm competing there tomorrow hoping the weather holds off!!
Rob i'm also in weston. Two hill loving cups in the same town!!

 

[GrahamV182]

No I didn't, you were 8 tenths faster!

You were LOADS quicker than me in the wet.

Sorry Rob .... I was well off the pace on Saturday and it pained me to look too closely at the results. I thought you beat me.
I had gone for a harder R7 compound VR2 tyre on saturday which were brilliant at the Castle Combe track day but slower at Wiscombe (a second slower than the soft R5 compound). On Sunday I used list 1A tyres - Rainsport 3 - which suited the conditions very well. It just reinforced my usual point that tyres are soooooooooooo important in speed events.

 

[David James]

I was reading through the blue book today and it says for road going class it says diff/gearbox engine has to be original or optional extra where's modified says they are free!
I am already confused

 

[GrahamV182]

I was reading through the blue book today and it says for road going class it says diff/gearbox engine has to be original or optional extra where's modified says they are free!
I am already confused

Hi David
Yes, it can be confusing.

For 'Road Going Series Production' Category the following applies:
Section 'S', pages 344 and 345 of the 2017 Blue Book:

• clause 10.8.1 – Reverse gear must be working;
• clause 11.8.1 (a) - The gearbox and diff casing must be externally identifiable as the standard casing. Must be in the same location. Therefore Internals can be upgraded / changed.
• clause 11.8.1 (b) - Sequential change not allowed on a Clio as it was never a standard option.

For 'Standard' Category – Section 'S', clause 11.9.1.3, Page 345 …. no changes to gearbox / diff mentioned therefore not allowed.

My wording for the clauses above but I think my interpretation is correct.

I think the key question for you is 'What category / class do I want to run in?'. Then build the car accordingly. I'm not sure if your local Championship has a 'Standard' category based class? Probably worth talking to someone local?

 

[David James]

Oh I see That makes things easier. As I say I want to build a competitive car but not break the rules.
I imagine I will end up running against you at some point anyway

 

[GrahamV182]

Just found this on YouTube from last Saturday at Wiscombe Park .....


@Rob Thomson you are 2:20 into the video - I'm 4:20 in. Its good to see the wide range of cars and some of the single seaters leaving the line

 

[shiftspark]

Oh I see That makes things easier. As I say I want to build a competitive car but not break the rules.
I imagine I will end up running against you at some point anyway

Depends on how much you wish to spend to be competitive? I've run in modified for years but this year have run in the Standard SB class by the time I had refreshed all the suspension and engine mounts, servicing and tyres it soon mounts up.
Can I tell I am 1-2 seconds slower from in the car ? Not really. I'd say run in standard for a year and see where you want to go.

 

[David James]

Well it's more the fact my car is already modified so might cost more to make standard!

 

[Brushwood69]

Just to add to this if you run in modified you will need a MSA log book for your car, not quite as strict as a race/rally car log book. It's also the same for sports libre. I had to run in this class as my car is 99% rally car but don't have the log book yet but as it has a MOT its ok to run in sports libre without log book.