M100CUP - RB 182 Sprint and Hillclimb Car

[GrahamV182]

Quick Update: Its been a while since the last update following Wiscombe Park:

M100CUP was a bit poorly in the gearbox department – it jumped out of first gear on one of the tyre warming sessions before the start line at Wiscombe. Was it the gearbox bearings? Was it the gearbox mounts? What's the best solution if I need a new 'box? Rebuild or buy new? Buy second-hand?

My thoughts were the gearbox is only going to get worse …. so nip it in the bud. A quick post on ClioSport.Net gathered some good ideas on possible problems / remedies. Pure Motorsport where very, very helpful and suggested I start looking at the infamous 'dog bone' mount. I booked the car in at my local garage for Rod to have a quick look at it on his ramps (Rod is another mad hillclimber – had FTD at Wiscombe in his Pilbeam MP43 Supercharged V8 below!).

Pilbeam MP43 Supercharged V8 -

Sure enough the dog bone bush was showing signs of movement – even though it is a newish, poly bushed version of the dog bone. Rod ordered me a new improved mount from Pure Motorsport and fitted it the next day. He also adjusted the linkage. So far … so good.... less movement of the gear lever and after a few practice starts no sign of it jumping out of gear. I'm still not happy with the 'pain in the arse' short shifter – must replace it with a better linkage this summer. Fingers crossed that its ok for this weekend ….

Some more pics from Wiscombe -
Renault Williams Clio (260 bhp!) -

Found this on Flickr -

Don't you just love Minis?

Full gallery from Wiscombe Park (97 photos) on Flickr - https://www.flickr.com/photos/riviera_guy/sets/72157679940656284 - not my photos but a really good collection that shows what a wide range of cars you get at a hillclimb

Extreme VR2 tyres -

Very happy with the performance of the Extreme VR2s (above) – I posted some details in the Uphill Racer thread (thoughts copied below for info )…..

Some notes from my first competitive outing on the VR2 tyres.

Simon N (Mitsubishi 'Taxi' / EVO) had a durometer with him at Wiscombe on Saturday so we took the opportunity to measure the softness of some of the tyres in the paddock:
If my memory is correct -
- My Extreme VR2 (R5 - Soft compound) - measured 45 on the durometer scale.
- Simon's Maxsport RB5 (Soft) - measured 50
- Sample R888 (GG compound - Medium) - measured 55
- Sample R888 (SG compound - Soft) - measured 54
(smaller the number the softer the tyre)

I realise that this is not a very scientific comparision but all the tyres were measured at the end of the lunch break when all the tyres were the same temperature (about 15C). The tyres measured were all relatively new.

I think you can conclude from this comparision that the VR2s are what they say on the tin - soft! I also realise that softness is only one factor in the grip equation and we still have to look at softness across a range of operating temperatures.

Driving wise -
- lots of grip from the VR2s (compared to my old R888Rs)
- I didn't really test the limits of grip .... so I cant comment on breakaway / drift but they feel good and give you confidence
- I like the stiff sidewalls (I don't really like body roll in the Clio)
- Bagged a 3rd and 4th in class over the two days (20+ in class)

Things i'm not sure of -
- wear rate (I drive to / from events so I need to keep an eye on them (soft compound is not ideal for the road)
- wet grip (the tread pattern does not give me much confidence of wet weather performance)

My personal thoughts - very good grip / recommended / very good value for money​

So whats next?

Saturday 13th May is a round of the ASWMC Sprint Championship at Llandow circuit – one of my favourite tracks. I had tried to get a late entry into the weekend's events at Wiscombe Park which is much closer for me but sadly they were fully booked - so I plan a trip over the Severn Bridge to Wales.
The Williams Clio will be there and I expect it to be very fast on the straights but I hope I can claw back some time on the twiddly bits. I had the beating of the Williams at Wiscombe Park but it wont be so easy at Llandow.
I know Llandow is notorious for tyre wear so it will be good to see how the soft compound VR2s cope with the abrasive surface. Also fingers crossed that the gearbox behaves itself.
If any body is spectating at Llandow on Saturday then please drop by and say hello …. Pics and videos early next week

 

[Brushwood69]

Great stuff Graham. I meet up with Nick last week as well as I need a Diff and he recommended buying a refurb gearbox from him with the diff fitted. He was getting his Clio fine tuned on the rolling road near me (where my clio is being rallyised) before a trip up the line for a Time Attack thing he is now doing.

 

[GrahamV182]

Good point .... I think the refurb box is a sensible option. The basic gearbox rebuild kit is over £300 .... before any gears, selectors, labour costs etc. Therefore I believe that makes the PMS box's good value.

 

[Rotoryboy]

Reading with great interest as I am looking into starting Hill-climbing.

 

[GrahamV182]

Llandow Sprint - 13th May 2017

I was told that it always rains in Wales: well Saturday the 13th May was a dry day and provided a good day's fun at Llandow – tinted with a bit of sadness in the late afternoon.

First the good news:
The journey to Wales went well - they even take credit cards now at the Severn Bridge toll. At the 9.00 am Drivers Briefing we were warned that anybody 'exceeding track limits' would be penalised and their run would be classed as a 'fail' . The marshals were under strict instruction to report any car that contravened the MSA's guidance on track limits – basically it meant that circuit racing rules would apply. This was a bit of a blow because for the last 9 years I have always had two wheels off at two key parts of the Llandow circuit. I would have to adjust to the new rules.

M100CUP performed well ! I managed a 'third in class' for series production cars up to 2600 cc. The class was won by a very fast supercharged Lotus Elise and second place went to an extremely well driven 2 litre MX5. Overall I was very happy to come in with a third place....

Video of my first timed run - 88 seconds:


Results for Class A3 -

(note - the 'fails' above for exceeding track limits)

Extreme VR2 Tyres -
The soft compound Extreme VR2 tyres continued to stir a lot of interest. If I had a pound for everyone who stuck their thumbnail into my tyres to test the softness then I could afford another set of tyres - possibly wheels as well. The tyres held up well – 250 mile round trip on soft compound tyres and a few fast laps of Llandow -

Some snaps from around the paddock -

Rebekah Edwards in her very smart (and fast!) VW Lupo:
(Almost 'French Racing Blue' ?)

Dean's new motor for his MX5: 215 bhp with a 9000 rpm rev limit!

Mark Tozer and Peter O'Connor getting to the start line:

Rob 'Hooligan' Thomson on track in his 172 Cup:

My favourite car from the weekend - immaculate:

And now the sad bit:
Sprinting and Hillclimbing is probably one of the safest forms of Motorsport but accidents do happen. Sadly there was a serious accident late on Saturday afternoon when a 'spaceframed' Imp rolled at high speed on the back straight. The marshals and on-site emergency services responded quickly and, although very badly shaken, the word around the paddock was that the driver was OK. Looking at the photo it seems the roll cage did its job and saved the driver from a much more serious injury.

Thanks for reading ...

 

[Brushwood69]

Why was Mark T not in A3? He is a good driver and beat me in the wet at Werrington this year so it would be good to see his time against yours. Good to see a load of Clio's but RB is still the best colour !!

 

[GrahamV182]

Hi Nathan..... Mark T had entered the Bristol MC Clio Cup Championship class. He won his class but I think I was a couple of seconds faster.

But to be fair he was on slow List 1A tyres as required for the Clio Cup Championship ......

 

[shiftspark]

Just goes to show when it goes wrong you need all the safety gear they keep forcing on us. Surprised they have not pushed for roll cages in road going yet.

 

[bashracing]

I think they will do soon, Especially now Harewood is using 1b tyres the ability to turn one over has become simpler

 

[GrahamV182]

All the Clios from the Llandow Sprint, photos courtesy of Bristol Pegasus Motor Club -
Mark Tozer -

Peter O'Connor (Trophy) -

Rob 'Hooligan' Thomson -

Wynne Morgan (Williams Clio) -

Andrew Bisping (Clio 200) -

Yours Truly ... three wheeling -

Back on 4 wheels -

Full gallery of all cars (900+ photos) - http://gallery.bristolpegasus.com/2017/Llandow/

 

[imprezaworks]

Love your car mate

 

[marc1330]

Looks good Graham, I really enjoy the LLandow sprint but was out the country enjoying the sun until yesterday!!! Sad news about the imp but good to see roll cage did it's job. There was also a nasty crash at Wiscombe yesterday which resulted in injury to the driver and a shortened day.
I was competing there today and we only managed one timed run for various reasons.

 

[Clio_fool]

How do you roll on a straight? Good to hear the guy was ok, but damn shame about the car it looks pretty cool.

 

[bashracing]

Normally something like a rear toe link failing from bouncing the kerbs and it kicks it sideways

 

[DrR]

I remember seeing this drive round Blandford. Awesome car.

 

[Rob Thomson]

I'm beginning to get a complex about these "Hooligan" comments...!!

Graham, it was great to talk to you at the weekend and I don't mind in the slightest being beaten by such a nice bloke.

 

[Coops Mk1]

great write up, love that Williams as well

 

[Nathan Evans]

Great thread. Glad I stumbled across this. I'm going to a sprint on Sunday to go over what I need to make my car fit into a class.

A3 Seems best.
Can you clear some things up seeing as I'll be running a clio too.
Apart from the cut off switch, yellow tape and timing strut.
Are you allowed to remove the CD player?
Rear bench and door cards have to be fitted?
Do you run coilovers with solid top mounts?
Are front and rear strut braces permitted?
What exhaust modifications are allowed if any?
And does A3 class need to be taxed, mot'd and insured?

 

[Brushwood69]

A3 does need to be MOT'd and if driven needs tax! (if you bring on a trailer then no) You are only allowed to remove the carpet sets and parcel shelfs if they come off easily. You do not need an electrical cut off only a sticker by the ignition barrel showing on - off directions. Suspension is free but you are not allowed to move the location points (so you can upgrade to coilovers but you couldn't on an escort mk2) Strut braces are free. You can have any exhaust as long as it meets the msa limit of 105db R 3/4 Limit Decat for MOT but not checked ;-) CD players are not checked so upto you.

Go along to one near you and you will need to join a local motor club and have an MSA non race b as a minimum.

cheers BW

 

[GrahamV182]

To add to the @Brushwood69 comments -

• Headlining, front and rear door cards, rear seats, dashboard etc have to remain fitted (Blue Book regulation - 11.4.6. Interior trim must remain fitted (except floor carpets/mats)')
• Exhausts are free but you do need a CAT fitted (sports or full): (Blue Book Common Regulations: 5.16.7. Exhaust catalytic converters must be fitted to all petrol engined production based saloon, touring and sports cars, including specialist production and kit cars, manufactured after 31/12/99. They may be specified for certain other formulae. Competitors are reminded of their obligation to maintain such equipment on a vehicle used on the highway where government legislation requires it).
• Bit of a grey area regarding road tax / road insurance: The Blue Book section is - 9.1.7. All cars competing in Hill Climbs or Sprints must be presented for scrutineering ...... in a road legal condition or is currently used in circuit racing and is entered in an event on an occasional basis only. The onus of proof rests with the competitor. Sadly, the Blue Book has no definition of what it means by 'road legal condition' - is it just MOT? Or is it the full monty - tax, MOT and Insurance? I had to show proof of MOT, Insurance and Road Tax at Llandow two weeks ago but I'm not sure the scrutineer knew what class I was in It is open to discussion / argument.
• You don't need a full ignition cutoff switch - but as stated you do need a clear label on your ignition switch:

I must stress that my comments above apply to Road Going Series Production Category (e.g A3 class) .... they do not apply to the new Standard Car Category (Blue Book - 11.9.1). Interestingly there is a glimpse of what the MSA means by 'Road Legal Condition' in this section .... it states 'Fleet Insurance is not allowed' - so they must check cars for insurance in this category - but it doesn't really state that.

A pdf copy of the Blue Book can be found here - https://www.msauk.org/assets/bluebook2017completevlow-res.pdf You get a paper copy when you apply for your MSA licence.

Hope this helps.....

 

[Nathan Evans]

To add to the @Brushwood69 comments -

• Headlining, front and rear door cards, rear seats, dashboard etc have to remain fitted (Blue Book regulation - 11.4.6. Interior trim must remain fitted (except floor carpets/mats)')
• Exhausts are free but you do need a CAT fitted (sports or full): (Blue Book Common Regulations: 5.16.7. Exhaust catalytic converters must be fitted to all petrol engined production based saloon, touring and sports cars, including specialist production and kit cars, manufactured after 31/12/99. They may be specified for certain other formulae. Competitors are reminded of their obligation to maintain such equipment on a vehicle used on the highway where government legislation requires it).
• Bit of a grey area regarding road tax / road insurance: The Blue Book section is - 9.1.7. All cars competing in Hill Climbs or Sprints must be presented for scrutineering ...... in a road legal condition or is currently used in circuit racing and is entered in an event on an occasional basis only. The onus of proof rests with the competitor. Sadly, the Blue Book has no definition of what it means by 'road legal condition' - is it just MOT? Or is it the full monty - tax, MOT and Insurance? I had to show proof of MOT, Insurance and Road Tax at Llandow two weeks ago but I'm not sure the scrutineer knew what class I was in It is open to discussion / argument.
• You don't need a full ignition cutoff switch - but as stated you do need a clear label on your ignition switch:

View attachment 187888

I must stress that my comments above apply to Road Going Series Production Category (e.g A3 class) .... they do not apply to the new Standard Car Category (Blue Book - 11.9.1). Interestingly there is a glimpse of what the MSA means by 'Road Legal Condition' in this section .... it states 'Fleet Insurance is not allowed' - so they must check cars for insurance in this category - but it doesn't really state that.

A pdf copy of the Blue Book can be found here - https://www.msauk.org/assets/bluebook2017completevlow-res.pdf You get a paper copy when you apply for your MSA licence.

Hope this helps.....

Great. This helps a lot. Thank you very much. I'm going to watch an event on Sunday. And this has cleared a few things up. But I may be getting this confused. They said I can't enter A3 due to not having a rollcage. And to be in that class I need a HANS device. Which I am going to get. And the car will be having a full cage in the very near future. But not in time for the next meeting.

And at the minute the car does have 12 months mot, but I trailed it to and from events. So I've not had the need to tax and insure it

 

[GrahamV182]

Hi Nathan
RE: 'They said I can't enter A3 due to not having a rollcage. And to be in that class I need a HANS device.'.

Yes, it is confusing Two things to be aware of -

1) The difference between Category and Class: The category is the broad set of definitions and rules imposed by the MotorSport Authority (MSA). These categories are define in the Blue Book and includes categories called road going series production, sport libre, modified production, specialist production, etc, etc. Motor Clubs take these categories (standards / rules) and then divide in to Classes (usually based on engine size - eg a club would have a class for road going series production up to 1400cc).
2) Class A3 may mean a completely different class depending where you are in the country. Motor Clubs in the south west state Class 'A3' is 'Road Going Series Production cars up to 2600cc' - 'A3' may mean something completely different in your part of the country. I assume you are talking about entering a Clio in to Sprints / Hillclimbs - hence you are entering a class in 'Road Going Series Production' category - as defined on page 344 of the Blue Book. No roll cage or HANS device is required for this category.... irrespective of what the class is called by the organising motor club. ​

So a couple of things spring to mind -

1) There may be some reasons why your car can not fit into 'Road Going Series Production' category. Do you have non list 1A or non list 1 B tyres? do you have slicks? do you have plastic windows? have you taken the seats out? is the silhouette of the car different to standard? Any of these would move your car into a 'Modified Production' Category where you would require a roll cage and HANS;
2) Class A3 definition in your neck of the woods may be part of a Modified Production category which requires Roll cage and HANS. You want to be in a class relating to Road Going Series Production category as defined by the MSA.... have a look and make sure you know what that class is called in your area.
​

Sorry its confusing ...... but once you've started it will all become very very clear.

 

[sandys]

Hello, just popped over here from the link in your YouTube vid Graham, I was in the MX5 ahead of you in class at Llandow, nice motor you have there, a lot of attention to details in your motor, I really should pay more attention to mine and get it more track and safety focussed.

Filled my camera on the day leaving it running so didn't capture much myself except for my last run which was a scrappy run, some way off my 86 target for the day, I had to back off just to stay in the lines I normally slide over, I also normally take much more kerb :smiley: so Llandow was quite tricky to stay legal on, failed a couple of runs that day trying to figure out a new way of driving it, quite annoying as my Championship record are based on historical data, I was driving a different track that day with those rules IMO.

Reckon there is more time out there for you straightening up the chicane by taking it more from the left side rather than the right as you do. You can sort of see what I mean when I do it better on my second lap I normally go in a bit hotter and go over the line around the curve but had to take it steady for fear of yet more fails.

Those tyres of yours look interesting, I am trying 1Bs for the first time this year and went with Yoko AD08R, I haven't found them to be much better for a sprint than 1A ContiSport 5s they replaced, of course they will lap all day vs CSC5s 4 lap limit but not something I care about as a sprint/hill climber.

I couldn't see another thread on them but looks like you have run r888r and these, have you been able to compare times from a similar event, what is your verdict? Sounds like you are happy.

 

[Rob Thomson]

Graham, one thing I've noticed from watching your onboard is that your car seems to need far more steering lock than mine.

Are you using a non-PAS rack from a 'normal' Clio?

 

[JackJack]

Great thread @GrahamV182 :up:

Will pop over for a chat if you are at wiscombe again this year. I try and get to as many as possible the may 13th/14th weekend was the busiest I've seen for a long time.

 

[GrahamV182]

Hello, just popped over here from the link in your YouTube vid Graham, ...............

Reckon there is more time out there for you straightening up the chicane by taking it more from the left side rather than the right as you do. You can sort of see what I mean when I do it better on my second lap I normally go in a bit hotter and go over the line around the curve but had to take it steady for fear of yet more fails.

Hi - interesting comment re the line into the chicane. I have tried both lines but feel more comfortable entering from the right hand side of the road Quite a lot of 'fails' last weekend - I usually hang two wheels off the circuit in several places but last weekend I had to curb (sic) my enthusiasm.

Graham, one thing I've noticed from watching your onboard is that your car seems to need far more steering lock than mine.

Are you using a non-PAS rack from a 'normal' Clio?

No - standard PAS rack - I don't understand it but yes I seem to need much more lock than you. Do you have a 'quick rack'? Do you think I am understeering more than you?

Great thread @GrahamV182 :up:
Will pop over for a chat if you are at wiscombe again this year. I try and get to as many as possible the may 13th/14th weekend was the busiest I've seen for a long time.

Yes - I have spoken to a few people about Wiscombe and their feeling was that there were just too many entrants that weekend. 140 cars plus 47 bikes on the Sunday? I think there is a Wiscombe event in late July - I believe its the National Hillclimb Championship weekend - I will try to get there for that.

 

[Rob Thomson]

Mine's got the standard rack (as far as I know).

Yours doesn't look like it's understeering particularly. Maybe it's a geometry thing, lots of toe-out perhaps?

 

[GrahamV182]

Mine's got the standard rack (as far as I know).

Yours doesn't look like it's understeering particularly. Maybe it's a geometry thing, lots of toe-out perhaps?

I have a lot of negative camber on the front...... maybe that affects it. I'm no expert on suspension geometry Also is there a difference between the 172 rack and the 182 rack?

The gearing is certainly different .... you never hit 4th gear whilst I needed it on both straights. Are you on 16 inch wheels?

 

[Rob Thomson]

Yeah, it's on 16s (I prefer the handling on 15s but they're a no-no in the Standard Car category) but I doubt there's much difference in circumference. I guess you need fourth as you're carrying more speed through the corners and accelerate more quickly on the straights with those throttle bodies...

 

[Nathan Evans]

Hi Nathan
RE: 'They said I can't enter A3 due to not having a rollcage. And to be in that class I need a HANS device.'.

Yes, it is confusing Two things to be aware of -

1) The difference between Category and Class: The category is the broad set of definitions and rules imposed by the MotorSport Authority (MSA). These categories are define in the Blue Book and includes categories called road going series production, sport libre, modified production, specialist production, etc, etc. Motor Clubs take these categories (standards / rules) and then divide in to Classes (usually based on engine size - eg a club would have a class for road going series production up to 1400cc).
2) Class A3 may mean a completely different class depending where you are in the country. Motor Clubs in the south west state Class 'A3' is 'Road Going Series Production cars up to 2600cc' - 'A3' may mean something completely different in your part of the country. I assume you are talking about entering a Clio in to Sprints / Hillclimbs - hence you are entering a class in 'Road Going Series Production' category - as defined on page 344 of the Blue Book. No roll cage or HANS device is required for this category.... irrespective of what the class is called by the organising motor club. ​

So a couple of things spring to mind -

1) There may be some reasons why your car can not fit into 'Road Going Series Production' category. Do you have non list 1A or non list 1 B tyres? do you have slicks? do you have plastic windows? have you taken the seats out? is the silhouette of the car different to standard? Any of these would move your car into a 'Modified Production' Category where you would require a roll cage and HANS;
2) Class A3 definition in your neck of the woods may be part of a Modified Production category which requires Roll cage and HANS. You want to be in a class relating to Road Going Series Production category as defined by the MSA.... have a look and make sure you know what that class is called in your area.
​

Sorry its confusing ...... but once you've started it will all become very very clear.

Thanks Graham. That's cleared a lot up that I was confused about. Just got home now from LDMC at three sister.
Now I know exactly what my car needs for each class. Only thing that is putting me off. The be in the same modified productiton class as you they said I wouldn't be able to use my rear coilovers. I'd have to go back to a spring and shock

 

[Akay]

'Quick' racks are 2.75 turns lock to lock, 3.25 turn is EPAS for petrol non-sports, the dci rack is the quicker 'manual' rack and the sport is the only hydro rack, 2.75 turns.

 

[JackJack]

http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/cl...ension/clio-2-rs-quick-rack-25-reduction.html

 

[Chambers_RS]

I run the PMS quick rack. Very good.

 

[GrahamV182]

Manor Farm Hillclimb - Saturday 10th June and Sunday 11th June.

Saturday 10th

The Manor Farm hillclimb is a small, friendly event run jointly by 3 motor clubs - Torbay, Taunton and Burnham. Its at Charmouth on the south coast and only about 25 miles from my home in Dorset. The course is relatively short but quite difficult and not very forgiving if you make a mistake (more of that later). The view from the paddock over to Charmouth beach and Charmouth village makes it a very pleasant place to spend a weekend kicking tyres and talking cars .....

The weather was grey and gloomy for most of the day but with a stiff sea breeze the track was dry by the time the practice runs were over. The Saturday runs were very close between myself and a very nice Mazda MX5 (coilovers, uprated brakes, Toyo triple 8R's, BBR engine upgrades to 210 bhp). I think that MX5 was probably the nicest MX5 I have ever seen. The MX5 was beating me until the very last run of the day when we both dipped below the magic 30 second barrier ....... but I pipped it by 0.13 of a second.

Video of the Manor Farm run on Saturday -

The following results printout shows how close we were ... the Mitsubishi 'Taxi' with its 4 wheel drive was half a second faster than M100CUP but I think we did OK.

All good on Saturday - one minor incident: I ran over my thermos flask

Sunday 11th June
The weather picked up on the Sunday and I was even in danger of getting a sun tan. The times were dropping and on my first competitive run I dipped below the magic 30 second barrier.

Video of my best run on Sunday:


Then a bit of a problem on my 5th run - a classic case of 'speed exceeds talent'. I went into the first left hander too fast - it is bumpy on the outside of the curve and once I got two wheels on the grass i was just a passenger.

Video of my 'off' into the straw bales ....


Picture of the damage -

Overall though - it was a great weekend. Yes, my pride was really hurt that I'd spun the car and bent the door but I had a great weekend's fun and two more trophies for the collection. I think the odd bump goes with the sport.

Now to get the repairs to the car underway .... (door ordered first thing Monday morning and paint shop lined up).

 

[imprezaworks]

 

[Louis]

Wouldn't that have pulled out?

 

[william...]

Great news! Time for some new lither doores

https://www.cmcomposites.co.uk/clio-parts/

 

[GrahamV182]

Wouldn't that have pulled out?

I took it around to my local bodyshop man / mate this morning and his advice was I would get a better / cheaper job replacing the door. You can't see it in the picture but there is a split in the metal just below the mirror.
Those straw bales are darned heavy......

 

[GrahamV182]

Re.. composite doors.....

Sadly for 'road going series production' classes the rules are I can't have composite doors ..... even the door trim has to be in place.

]

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

Great result, nice to see a little Clio doing well. Door isn't too bad. At least it's a simple panel swap, rather than a rear quarter or something, could have been much worse!