Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

How do you mean a conventional switch? I took one apart a while ago and its just a little rotating switch inside - got four wires coming out of the barrel itself (Perm Live, 2 x Ign Live, Starter). Although, I could never get that one working properly again so I must have f*cked something when I took it apart lol

 

[Russ_16v]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Some cars (vw's and vauxhalls for example) have a removable switch behind the barrel, the key in effect slides through the barrel, abd turns the slot in the ignition switch to start the car, by the sounds of it your barrel has the switch in built, so id start with the barrel mate.

I have a spare 172 one if that helps

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I think ive got a 172 one somewhere - came with the interior loom I was given. The connector is different but its worth trying I guess, il have a look later!

 

[Russ_16v]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

If you dont mate, let me know and il send you my spare to try if you want.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Well I think the problem has been found (I hope anyway!)

Found the 172 barrel, but the connector was different. I removed the wires from the connector to see if they were the same size crimps as the Mk1, unfortunately they are not so its not as easy as swapping the connectors over..

Anyway, I had both of them apart - the one that I had been using was fairly black on the inside, cleaned up with WD40 etc and put it back together. Then I took the 172 one apart, this was equally as black but cleaned it all up anyway. The key barrel is in two parts, the 'key' part, and the wiring/switching part. I tried various combinations of 'key' part with the Mk1 wiring/switch as thats the only one that will plug into the car loom. I think the Mk1 'key' part is 100% fine though, as esentially its just a rotating part and everything moves as it should, same as the 172 one..

It seemed to work every time, but I tried moving/twisting the wires going into the barrel and it cut out. It did this a few times, managed to get it to cut out every time I tried. Either its a dodgy contact on the Mk1 wiring/switch, or something else - but it has to be related with it cutting out when being moved I think. Bit wierd how everything inside on the contacts is clean though!

Might have to try and get a Mk1 barrel that I dont need to take apart and go from there...

 

[Russ_16v]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yup, that would be my plan if I was you matey!

Oh, nothing in the post today lol, il let you know over next few days

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Alright no problem - Il chase my dad up if not, he was the one that took it to the posty with the rest of his stuff..

 

[cliovicky]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

i have a mk1 barrel if u need one mate - pop over

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I already bought one off eBay last night - il let you know though, might still need it

 

[Russ_16v]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

fingers crossed for ya fella

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Borrowed a key barrel from another Mk1 last night, started every time and seemed to be no hesitation like my barrel tends to have.

Hopefully the 'new' barrel from ebay will show up and sort the problem

 

[Christopher]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

You coming along tonight mate?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeh should be

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

wierd

don't hear of many barrels failing!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

After it had been running last night I turned it off and left it for 5 mins... When I went to start it again, ignition stage 2 was fine, everything came on and the fuel pump primed etc, but when you went to position 3 to start it nothing happened, it was just completely dead.

Originally when it used to do this I thought it was the starter solenoid sticking, but Im pretty certain it isnt as I hit it with a bar and then tried it again and still nothing. Although, if I held the key in position 3 for 40-50secs, sometimes more, it would fire into like 100% normally. Even though I've had it apart and cleaned up all the contacts, I think its a dodgy connection between the permenant live and the starter solenoid wire.

When I put the other barrel on from the other car, it fired up straight away probably quicker than it ever has done. Even tried it 10-15 times over the space of an hour and every time was the same, perfect start. So I think the only thing it can be is the barrel!

 

[cliovicky]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

good news, glad i could offer some help diagnose the problem.

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

wierd

don't hear of many barrels failing!

not that uncommon, and those big motorsport cutoff switches can do it too.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Well since we swapped barrels for that short time the other night, and then put my own back on, its been 100% fine. Started every time, never hesitated once - its just so so random. The replacement key barrel from eBay still hasn't turned up, but that does not really matter as its been working fine...who knows.

Anyway, I had a knocking coming from the passenger side after Mallory which I had put off checking over, but got round to it the other day. I could not replicate the knocking noise with the car in the air, would only do it when that side was under load. I took the ball joint off and found the problem - the upright part (that goes into the hub) had separated from the housing, and the 'ball' itself had cracked - resulting in a lot of play/up-down movement. I had another one lying round so I swapped it over and its all fine again.

With less than a week to go until Oulton Park, I did the tracking again (after swapping ball joints), swapped the front pads, bled the brakes, spanner checked the whole front end and cleaned the inside out as it was covered in mud from Mallory Park. So thats it about done and ready for Oulton!

 

[Russ_16v]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Good little write up mate, looks like the barrel is the problem, you must have made the connection better, bet it doesnt last though

Sounds like she is ready for another pasting then

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Spoke too soon! :banghead:

No matter what I tried this morning it would not even turn over, although after I smashed the f*ck out of the starter motor with a hammer it did. Been fine all day too after that, as it has been for the past few days. Very very odd.

 

[adam172]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

so it could be the starter motor? and changing of the barrels ect could all just be coinsidence?

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

do you still have the heatshield on the starter motor?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Starter was replaced when it was put back together earlier this year, always started perfect etc - practically no use at all. Although I suppose they can just 'go'.

No heatshield nope, never had one since the coversion was first done in early 2009 though. The manifold is wrapped though, i can quite happily put my hand under the manifold onto the starter after being on out on track. But surely the heat cant cause that many problems to them? Ive seen the 1*2 heatshields before, and they fall off so easily - I wouldnt be suprised if half the 1*2s out there dont even have them....

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I think you'll be Ok with the wrapped manifold. I only really know about 5s, and they die real quick if you remove the heatshield.

Do you get the click when you try to start? If not I'd suspect a wiring problem. How tight does the small spade connector on the motor feel?

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Does it get rained on through the slot in the bonnet?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Nothing at all when you try and start, the solenoid does nothing...hence why i thought it was a problem with the barrel in the end (like it not giving 12v to the starter/solenoid wire), but I dont think it is. Although, there must have been some sort of problem with the barrel originally, as it would crank over happily and just not fire up sometimes. Might have been a combination of both things!

The solenoid wire is quite a tight fit, I replaced the whole length when I put the engine back in when the car had been painted etc..

Edit - Vent is blocked up from when I had the coilpack in the standard position, still is now..

 

[TimR26]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

After it had been running last night I turned it off and left it for 5 mins... When I went to start it again, ignition stage 2 was fine, everything came on and the fuel pump primed etc, but when you went to position 3 to start it nothing happened, it was just completely dead.

Originally when it used to do this I thought it was the starter solenoid sticking, but Im pretty certain it isnt as I hit it with a bar and then tried it again and still nothing. Although, if I held the key in position 3 for 40-50secs, sometimes more, it would fire into like 100% normally. Even though I've had it apart and cleaned up all the contacts, I think its a dodgy connection between the permenant live and the starter solenoid wire.

When I put the other barrel on from the other car, it fired up straight away probably quicker than it ever has done. Even tried it 10-15 times over the space of an hour and every time was the same, perfect start. So I think the only thing it can be is the barrel!

My 172 has the same issue that appears randomly every few weeks and starts after about 20 seconds if I hold it like above. Let me know what the issue is if you resolve it. Very frustrating when it happens

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah - its pretty wierd.

Im just about to check the solenoid wire to be sure, but im quite confident that its on very tight. Thing is though, when it does this, the ingition comes on fine in position 2, fuel pump primes etc, and the car will bump start fine - so it says to me its a starter motor problem. Although, the other times when it cranked over fine but didnt start cant be!

 

[TimR26]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Mines exactly as you've described. I've had two new starter motors since January and it starts fine 99% of the time so don't think its the starter motor.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Well I checked the solenoid wire earlier, seemed fine. But to be sure I put a brand new crimp on, fitted back to the starter motor and made sure the connection was tight. Checked the continuity and it was perfecly fine, so id say a wiring issue cant be the problem..

Its started fine since then - although no doubt itl just not turn over sometime soon at the most inconvenient time!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Well, the car lasted Oulton Park yesterday. Drove faultlessly, although it wouldnt start by itself so had to keep bumping it! Il do a proper update about Oulton later...

The new key barrel arrived yesterday when I was out, so I fitted that first to try it. Turned the key and nothing at all, exactly the same as yesterday. Ignition stage 2 comes on, the pump primes etc, but position 3 does nothing. So I guessed it has to be something to do with the motor/solenoid, as I dont even get a click when it goes to position 3. Ive just removed the starter and found this...

The solenoid spade connector is hanging on by a thread, its barely even touching. That might explain why position 3 was doing nothing as the solenoid wont have been getting enough power to do anything. Just about to replace the spade with one from another starter motor - so maybe its problem solved?

 

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

hopefully

 

[ROB91]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

"yoooooo jamie rigby"

Lets hope its that jord

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Along with the solenoid crimp I also noticed this...

That'l be why the motor wasnt turning over then. It was just resting on the metal contact but not properly connected... So I took both starters apart and made one 'good' one from the two broken ones, everything seemed OK..

Fitted it back to the car and it starts fine now, although it sounds like the motor itself is running for a splt second too long and catching the flywheel/freewheeling every time it starts. Not sure if there is something wrong with the motor or the key barrel isnt cutting the 12v to the solenoid wire straight away. Cant be bothered taking the motor off to have a look yet but im sure it has to be one or the other..

 

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

mint

 

[Daniel]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I have the same f**king problem now. EXACTLY the same symptoms.

 

[Matteh]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

i had issues where my starter would just 'click' - ie the solenoid was fine but that's it

mine would usually (but not always) start when cold, but pretty much never when hot.

putting the car in gear and rocking it with the starter engaged seemed to 'unstick' it and it would turn over fine and fire up!

a new starter didn't fix the issue... it turned out to be the battery!



I have the starter heatshield, but it won't fit the heatwrapped manifold

 

[Daniel]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I've tried whacking the starter, but its no good. I can't seem to get anything of a decent size in there to give it a good clout.

I will go and try the in gear rocking now Matt, cheers.

 

[Matt Cup]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Just finished reading this build, the car is a real credit to you :approve:

The amount of work you have put into this is mind blowing, you must have a hell of a lot of patience.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Thanks for the comment, its been a lot of work upto now, but its pretty much there - just a few bits to tidy up. I bought the car two years ago on Tuesday, the night I got it back the power steering pump fell off and it all went from there, lol.


As for Oulton Park it was a good day, apart from a few problems, one being the starter motor above... Few other issues but nothing major... I think the thermostat is knackered as the water temperature gauge shoots right up to the max if left parked up when its hot, and sometimes when out on track. Then, within the same lap it will drop right down to the normal position on the gauge, then go back up to max again regardless of air getting to the radiator etc - Just seemed completely random!

Earlier the day before the car was parked up in the sun, turned round to find..

The current windscreen is the 4th one its had, now its going to need another - Il have spent £360 on windscreens alone! Anyway, the last thing is the front coilovers - sometimes when turning in it feels like the car leans over a lot, I think they may be too soft? They are not adjustable unfortunately, and I had the rears set to quite firm, but im unsure. It felt fine to drive most of the time, just the odd corner where it felt a bit wierd and seemed to loose grip on the inside wheel - as to which the pictures confirmed with the wheel nearly leaving the ground...

I felt the R888s were a bit better with even pressures all the way round (29psi Hot), rather than different front to back - but that may just be the way the suspension is too, something I need to play with. They wore evenly and didnt loose much material at all, didnt look too far different to the start of the day. Anyway, different front coilovers (or springs) may be something to look into after a bit of research, I'l have to see!



vs AdamAnderton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn27Nh5XQ68
vs Whiteley - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd5pCJuOoDM

More soon!