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Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
would a 172 AR bar be the way to go?
would a 172 AR bar be the way to go?
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Ahh, OK, looked to be more space on the Clio, I can't use one on my 5 as the hump hits the floor, so I'm stuck with the Williams bar on that too.
I'm sure Reichard used to show an uprated 172 bar that looked to be straight, but I'm not sure I want to shell out what they want to find out. Anyway, no sign of it on their site anymore.
No bars at all on the Twingo
Doesn't fit due to the hump it has for the PAS/Rack on a 172, I have one but had to use the williams ARB instead
Ahh, OK, looked to be more space on the Clio, I can't use one on my 5 as the hump hits the floor, so I'm stuck with the Williams bar on that too.
I'm sure Reichard used to show an uprated 172 bar that looked to be straight, but I'm not sure I want to shell out what they want to find out. Anyway, no sign of it on their site anymore.
No bars at all on the Twingo
M
mini-valver
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Cut and re-weld it?
Cut and re-weld it?
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Its a possibility, but i dont think its the issue...
The williams ARB is only a few mm too short on each end, which dosent make a difference really, fits in the bushes fine and the car fine....
I think the problem with things coming loose (mainly balljoints) is something not fitting correctly width wise. The driveshafts fit OK, not too long not too short, wishbones are fine, as does everything else, but it seems they just love to loosen themselves.
Each balljoint bolt now has two nuts on, locked against each other, hopefully this wont pass the strain onto something else though...
Its a possibility, but i dont think its the issue...
The williams ARB is only a few mm too short on each end, which dosent make a difference really, fits in the bushes fine and the car fine....
I think the problem with things coming loose (mainly balljoints) is something not fitting correctly width wise. The driveshafts fit OK, not too long not too short, wishbones are fine, as does everything else, but it seems they just love to loosen themselves.
Each balljoint bolt now has two nuts on, locked against each other, hopefully this wont pass the strain onto something else though...
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
I was looking at where the exhaust and AR bar were hitting, rather than commenting on your bolts coming loose :rasp:
It might just be a case of needing new nuts, I think all that lot should use locknuts. They don't last forever.
I was looking at where the exhaust and AR bar were hitting, rather than commenting on your bolts coming loose :rasp:
It might just be a case of needing new nuts, I think all that lot should use locknuts. They don't last forever.
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Just thought id' write a bit of a summary of the last 12 months, not far off coming upto having the car for a year!
5 Engines
F7P - 1.8 16v - The Original.
F7R - 2.0 16v - Megane Bottom End + Valver (1.8) Cylinder Head (Rolling Roaded @ ~134bhp)
F7R - 2.0 16v - Megane Bottom End + Williams (2.0) Cylinder Head.
F7R - 2.0 16v - The Above Rebuilt after Cambelt Failed.
F4R - 2.0 16v - The Current 172 Engine.
3 Geaboxes
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - The Original, 2nd Began to Grind So Swapped To...
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - On 120k+ Miles, Gave Up @ Mallory.
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - New Style inc. Bolt In Diff, Current Box.
Oulton Park - 12th December 2008
RAF Marham - 18th + 19th April 2009
Brands Hatch - 27th May 2009
Cadwell Park - 6th July 2009
Cadwell Park - 11th August 2009
Mallory Park - 15th August 2009
Not to mention everything else like:
Oh, Easily Over 200 Days of Labour, The Joys of A Mk1 Now You Ask, Has It All Been Worth It?
...Worth Every Minute Spent! :evil: Roll On The Next 12 Months!
Just thought id' write a bit of a summary of the last 12 months, not far off coming upto having the car for a year!
5 Engines
F7P - 1.8 16v - The Original.
F7R - 2.0 16v - Megane Bottom End + Valver (1.8) Cylinder Head (Rolling Roaded @ ~134bhp)
F7R - 2.0 16v - Megane Bottom End + Williams (2.0) Cylinder Head.
F7R - 2.0 16v - The Above Rebuilt after Cambelt Failed.
F4R - 2.0 16v - The Current 172 Engine.
3 Geaboxes
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - The Original, 2nd Began to Grind So Swapped To...
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - On 120k+ Miles, Gave Up @ Mallory.
JB3 048 - 1.8 16v - New Style inc. Bolt In Diff, Current Box.
- Engine(s) have been removed 10 times.
- 6 Oil Filters.
- ALOT of Engine Oil
- ALOT of Coolant.
- 30+ Litres of Gearbox Oil.
- 2 Clutch Housings Siezed on F7P/F7R Engines.
- 4 Clutch Cables.
- 3 Speedo Cables (Now Gone Electric Speedo).
- 3 Sets of Top Mounts (Originals, New Standard, Currently AST).
- 4 Exhausts (Side Exit, Magnex, Scorpian, Currently Mongoose).
- 2 Snapped Gearbox Mounts.
- 4 172 Exhaust Manifold Downpipe Gaskets.
- 6 Bottom Ball Joints on 2 Sets of Wishbones.
- 4 Headgaskets for Various Engines.
- 24 New Sparkplugs.
- 8 Track Rod Ends on 3 Steering Racks (2x Valver + 1x Williams).
- 3 Sets of Front Disks (Used, Standard 172, Brembo HC).
- 2 Sets of Front Pads (Standard 172, Ferodo DS2500).
- 2 Sets of Rear Disks + Bearings.
- 16 New Valves (For F7R, Which Ended Up Being Wrong)
- 3 Williams Wheel Refurbs (2 x DIY, Currently Powdercoated).
- 1 New Windscreen.
- 8 Bent Valves (Cambelt Failure, then Wrong New Valves)
- 3 Batteries (Original, 1x Standard New, Currently Odyssey).
- 4 Alternators (Bushes Went In 3 High Milers, Currently Running a 100k+ One).
- ALOT of Hammerite Hammered Black. Me No Likey Rust.
- 2 F4R Bottom Ends (1x Ph1 Siezed, Currently Ph2 Bottom End).
- 4 Camshaft Swaps (172 Standard, Schricks, Schricks When Cam Seals Went, 172 Standard).
- 2 BrickTec (tm) Valves (Currently Still In Operation Somewhere)
- Recovered By The RAC 9 Times From Various Places
Oulton Park - 12th December 2008
RAF Marham - 18th + 19th April 2009
Brands Hatch - 27th May 2009
Cadwell Park - 6th July 2009
Cadwell Park - 11th August 2009
Mallory Park - 15th August 2009
Not to mention everything else like:
- All The Wiring Changes (From Original Valver, To Cut Down Williams Looms, To Cut Down 172 Looms)
- Bodywork Changes (Ph1 Parts Fitted)
- Engine Strip Downs and Rebuilds (F7R and F4R Mainly)
- Cleaning Parts/Components and the Chassis
- Painting Parts/Components and the Chassis (Hammeriting Everything)
- ALOT of Rusted and Rounded Off Bolts (Good Ole' Mk1s)
- All The Time Machining Brackets + Making Random Crap I Never Used
- Days Wrapping Exhaust Components (Williams Manifold + Downpipe + 172 Manifold + Downpipe)
- £££ Spent Buying Tools From Halfords + Renault (Timing Tools Especially, And In General, Cheers BRUN/Martin!)
- All The Hassle of the 172 ECU + Emulator
- ESPCIALLY all the Help From Matteh In Persuading Me To Do The 172 Converstion After Christmas LOL.
- All The Fun We Had Fitting The Cage Originally (Cheers Daz + Whiteley)
- The MANY Tyres Used + Changed...
- All The Money Spent On Trackdays/Shows + Accomodation For Them
- All The Ups + Downs of This Thread!
- Ive Probably Missed Out Tons, But Id Rather Not Think Anymore! Ha!
Oh, Easily Over 200 Days of Labour, The Joys of A Mk1
Now You Ask, Has It All Been Worth It?...Worth Every Minute Spent! :evil: Roll On The Next 12 Months!
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Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Ahhhhhh, nah that was when I didnt have the solid rear mount positioned correctly and the downpipe was resting on the ARB....its quite a way off touching now
As you said, probably just needs new nuts, everything was replaced a few months ago apart from the 4 main subframe ones!
Ahhhhhh, nah that was when I didnt have the solid rear mount positioned correctly and the downpipe was resting on the ARB....its quite a way off touching now
As you said, probably just needs new nuts, everything was replaced a few months ago apart from the 4 main subframe ones!
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Wooft seeing it all like that really highlights all the work.
Gold star to you mate!
Wooft seeing it all like that really highlights all the work.
Gold star to you mate!
JDM Dc2
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
yeh with me flying past :approve:
i wish lol
like already said, really shows how much time and effort has gone into it tbh!!
good work!!!
yeh with me flying past :approve:
i wish lol
like already said, really shows how much time and effort has gone into it tbh!!
good work!!!
172 cup
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
awesome foxy think i seen u the other weekend at mallory when u screwed ur gearbox i came up with my mate to pick up a strut brace
awesome foxy
think i seen u the other weekend at mallory when u screwed ur gearbox i came up with my mate to pick up a strut brace
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Awesome little write up of the last year. Look forward to seeing it at Marham again.
Awesome little write up of the last year. Look forward to seeing it at Marham again.
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Well, thought I had fixed the knocking and the dodgy steering....
...but after tonight's events on the rivington meet, not to mention nearly writing the car off a few times, ive ended up damaging something related to the steering/suspension on the drivers, if not both sides of the car.
Really cant wait to get this car off the road and to just use it on track, becoming far far to dangerous for the roads when the conditions are like they were tonight. Damp/Greasy/Dirty roads and an car weighing so little, with 172 brakes up front, do not mix well. Pressing the pedal is like an instant lockup, even at low speed, just down to the fact that the brakes are too good for the car / the roads are terrible / the car weighs nothing.
Locked up a few times, missing walls and fences, then the last time it locked up, a wall was fast approaching head on so I chucked the car onto some gravel to the side to regain some grip....with an almighty bang. No idea whats gone on it, feels like balljoint, but steering is out and the car wanders alot, then started to get some clunking from the passenger side too. Meh!
Will have to have a gander tomorrow, and just keep to main roads for now!
Well, thought I had fixed the knocking and the dodgy steering....
...but after tonight's events on the rivington meet, not to mention nearly writing the car off a few times, ive ended up damaging something related to the steering/suspension on the drivers, if not both sides of the car.
Really cant wait to get this car off the road and to just use it on track, becoming far far to dangerous for the roads when the conditions are like they were tonight. Damp/Greasy/Dirty roads and an car weighing so little, with 172 brakes up front, do not mix well. Pressing the pedal is like an instant lockup, even at low speed, just down to the fact that the brakes are too good for the car / the roads are terrible / the car weighs nothing.
Locked up a few times, missing walls and fences, then the last time it locked up, a wall was fast approaching head on so I chucked the car onto some gravel to the side to regain some grip....with an almighty bang. No idea whats gone on it, feels like balljoint, but steering is out and the car wanders alot, then started to get some clunking from the passenger side too. Meh!
Will have to have a gander tomorrow, and just keep to main roads for now!
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Replaced both ball joints few weeks ago, tightened everything mega tight the other day too Will see when I can be arsed to have a look in the dry lol.
Yeah, ive been thinking about it for months to be honest. My uncle has a trailer, so that isnt an issue. Ive been meaning to get a 2nd car for a while now, something big/diesel/full interior etc...hopefully soon.
Test isnt too expensive yeah, place just a mile down the road from me does it too. The main problem ive got is I need somewhere to store the car, and work on it ideally. Then il just drag the trailer up there, load it on and go when I need to....Its just finding somewhere!
Replaced both ball joints few weeks ago, tightened everything mega tight the other day too
Will see when I can be arsed to have a look in the dry lol.Yeah, ive been thinking about it for months to be honest. My uncle has a trailer, so that isnt an issue. Ive been meaning to get a 2nd car for a while now, something big/diesel/full interior etc...hopefully soon.
Test isnt too expensive yeah, place just a mile down the road from me does it too. The main problem ive got is I need somewhere to store the car, and work on it ideally. Then il just drag the trailer up there, load it on and go when I need to....Its just finding somewhere!
ValverInBits
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
a unit somewhere would be ideal. I'd love one too, but I havent really got the cash to be paying for it all year round.
Go a little easy on the mega tight with everything. I shocked myself the other day by overtightening the balljoint to hub bolt. Thought it didn't feel right so took it out again to find it had necked to half it's original diameter in the middle :S Won't be doing that again, lol
a unit somewhere would be ideal. I'd love one too, but I havent really got the cash to be paying for it all year round.
Go a little easy on the mega tight with everything. I shocked myself the other day by overtightening the balljoint to hub bolt. Thought it didn't feel right so took it out again to find it had necked to half it's original diameter in the middle :S Won't be doing that again, lol
superbenji88
ClioSport Club Member
BMW M135i
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Glad to see you made it home foxy.
You had chance to have a proper look under the car yet?
diesel Passat estate is what you want to tow a track car
Glad to see you made it home foxy.
You had chance to have a proper look under the car yet?
diesel Passat estate is what you want to tow a track car
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Yeah, had a quick look this evening after I got in.
Basically started by checking if there was any play with the car jacked up, wheel still on. Did one side at a time, nothing at all that wasnt normal.
So anyway, got the wheels off one side at a time. Checked the wishbone-to-balljoint bolts, nice and tight as they should be. Then checked the balljoint-to-hub pinch bolt, nice and tight too. They are the previous problems ive had with clunking etc, but anyway had a think about what else it could be.
Checked both track rod ends, both tight and nothing abnormal about them. Anyway, decided to check the subframe bolt that we tightened up on the ramps the other day (passenger side). Suprise suprise it had worked itself loose again somehow? It needs a new bolt + nylock, but thats on the list for tommorows jobs. Tightened it up for now as tight as I could get it.
Then had a think how it could keep coming loose, in such a small timeframe too (cant be related to last night, as that was more of a 'shock'. IMO only a vibration could be causing the subframe bolt to work loose. It has to be related to the solid dogbone mount that is fitted, sending vibrations through the subframe. I think the solution is to put a new bolt + 2 x nylock nuts on, do it up tight and use the 2nd nut to lock it to stop any possibility of it coming undone.
Anyway, after last nights events the steering had gone really wierd, tended to wander around a bit more than usual, so checked all the wishbone bolts, which were all tight. Checked the driveshafts/hub nuts/shock bolts/top mounts, all OK. Then, when looking closer at the passenger side wishbone, it seems the wishbone itself has moved by quite a bit...
There is a few MM gap to the right of the bush, you can see the center tube of the bush quite clearly...
The wishbone has moved about 15mm backwards on the bush (sleeve has moved), and then the whole lot has seemed to have moved forwards creating a gap at the back of the bush, the front bit is squashed up too...
Now I know everyone on here says to weld the sleeves to the wishbone, but the other side seems ok. The sleeve has moved a slight bit but there are no gaps to the front or rear of the bush like on the passenger side.
Also, if they were welded up, sureley the forces which have caused them to move on mine would be transferred elsewhere and cause another problem somewhere else on the setup?
Ive not driven it since tightening the subframe up, but i can guarantee that the knocking is fixed. With regards to the wandering steering, im guessing these wishbones have something to do with it....
Subframe bent? Hmmmm.
Yeah, had a quick look this evening after I got in.
Basically started by checking if there was any play with the car jacked up, wheel still on. Did one side at a time, nothing at all that wasnt normal.
So anyway, got the wheels off one side at a time. Checked the wishbone-to-balljoint bolts, nice and tight as they should be. Then checked the balljoint-to-hub pinch bolt, nice and tight too. They are the previous problems ive had with clunking etc, but anyway had a think about what else it could be.
Checked both track rod ends, both tight and nothing abnormal about them. Anyway, decided to check the subframe bolt that we tightened up on the ramps the other day (passenger side). Suprise suprise it had worked itself loose again somehow? It needs a new bolt + nylock, but thats on the list for tommorows jobs. Tightened it up for now as tight as I could get it.
Then had a think how it could keep coming loose, in such a small timeframe too (cant be related to last night, as that was more of a 'shock'. IMO only a vibration could be causing the subframe bolt to work loose. It has to be related to the solid dogbone mount that is fitted, sending vibrations through the subframe. I think the solution is to put a new bolt + 2 x nylock nuts on, do it up tight and use the 2nd nut to lock it to stop any possibility of it coming undone.
Anyway, after last nights events the steering had gone really wierd, tended to wander around a bit more than usual, so checked all the wishbone bolts, which were all tight. Checked the driveshafts/hub nuts/shock bolts/top mounts, all OK. Then, when looking closer at the passenger side wishbone, it seems the wishbone itself has moved by quite a bit...
There is a few MM gap to the right of the bush, you can see the center tube of the bush quite clearly...
The wishbone has moved about 15mm backwards on the bush (sleeve has moved), and then the whole lot has seemed to have moved forwards creating a gap at the back of the bush, the front bit is squashed up too...
Now I know everyone on here says to weld the sleeves to the wishbone, but the other side seems ok. The sleeve has moved a slight bit but there are no gaps to the front or rear of the bush like on the passenger side.
Also, if they were welded up, sureley the forces which have caused them to move on mine would be transferred elsewhere and cause another problem somewhere else on the setup?
Ive not driven it since tightening the subframe up, but i can guarantee that the knocking is fixed. With regards to the wandering steering, im guessing these wishbones have something to do with it....
Subframe bent? Hmmmm.
ValverInBits
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
consider that you are using longer wishbones than have ever been used on a valver subframe before. Therefore the wishbones lever on the subframe mountings more. Renault made the williams subframe stronger, presumably because the wishbones were longer......although why that should cause your wishbone bushes to slip i don't know! lol
Here's a link to all the OEM part numbers for the subframe/wishbones/hubs if you want it mate.
consider that you are using longer wishbones than have ever been used on a valver subframe before. Therefore the wishbones lever on the subframe mountings more. Renault made the williams subframe stronger, presumably because the wishbones were longer......although why that should cause your wishbone bushes to slip i don't know! lol
Here's a link to all the OEM part numbers for the subframe/wishbones/hubs if you want it mate.
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Just a bit of an addition.....this is how they were before fitted...
The polybushes and sleeves were harder to get in than getting the standard renault bushes and sleeves out, they were a MEGA tight fit.
BUT, the question is, why have the arms moved on the sleeves, maybe something dosent fit properly regarding the 172 gear? Ive got a feeling they would have moved on the sleeves on the standard 172 bushes too. Hmmmmmm.
Just a bit of an addition.....this is how they were before fitted...
The polybushes and sleeves were harder to get in than getting the standard renault bushes and sleeves out, they were a MEGA tight fit.
BUT, the question is, why have the arms moved on the sleeves, maybe something dosent fit properly regarding the 172 gear? Ive got a feeling they would have moved on the sleeves on the standard 172 bushes too. Hmmmmmm.
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Yeah, true.
When I slid last night, i hit that side of the car HARD, but I have no idea what damage it caused. I know the sleeves had moved slightly before in the past, but the bush has never moved and created a gap at the back like it has now.
I rekon the same would have happened if they were standard 172 bones with standard bushes, the wishbone may still move on the sleeve.
The reason may be the mountings on the subframe may be a few mm' different on a 172, so the wishbone has moved to 'square' itself up so to speak. Hmmmmm.
Yeah, true.
When I slid last night, i hit that side of the car HARD, but I have no idea what damage it caused. I know the sleeves had moved slightly before in the past, but the bush has never moved and created a gap at the back like it has now.
I rekon the same would have happened if they were standard 172 bones with standard bushes, the wishbone may still move on the sleeve.
The reason may be the mountings on the subframe may be a few mm' different on a 172, so the wishbone has moved to 'square' itself up so to speak. Hmmmmm.
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
Il completely take it off the road for goot when I find/get a unit to store the car in, as I cant store it at home. Wont be insured or taxed ever again probably, few other bits I can do related to wiring and stuff then and not have to worry about it being road legal. Only then will I get a 2nd car
Il completely take it off the road for goot when I find/get a unit to store the car in, as I cant store it at home. Wont be insured or taxed ever again probably, few other bits I can do related to wiring and stuff then and not have to worry about it being road legal. Only then will I get a 2nd car
superbenji88
ClioSport Club Member
BMW M135i
Re: Mk1 172 Hybrid Track Car Project
So you think hitting that hole has knocked the wishbone?
So you think hitting that hole has knocked the wishbone?
