Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[superbenji88]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Are the holes where your rear number plate goes to save weight, or has Adrian Newey helped you create a double decker diffuser?

 

[chrispy.clio]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Glad its all sorted but shame you've had to fork out another £90ish quid.

With regards to recovery and what not. I'm pretty sure if you have one of the solid bars then it comes under the same catagory as trailoring it. so it doesnt have to be insured taxed mot'd, Basically if you did your trailor licence then you could buy a little run around that can tow your car two and from trackdays and get a mate, brother, sister or who ever just to steer your car when in it. So you only have to store the Towing car and the track car. I think thats right anyway

 

[wilky19]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Glad its all sorted but shame you've had to fork out another £90ish quid.

With regards to recovery and what not. I'm pretty sure if you have one of the solid bars then it comes under the same catagory as trailoring it. so it doesnt have to be insured taxed mot'd, Basically if you did your trailor licence then you could buy a little run around that can tow your car two and from trackdays and get a mate, brother, sister or who ever just to steer your car when in it. So you only have to store the Towing car and the track car. I think thats right anyway

if its not taxed or MOTed it can't be towed its got to be trailered, no wheels can be on the road it is not got either

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Are the holes where your rear number plate goes to save weight, or has Adrian Newey helped you create a double decker diffuser?

Just for looks lol. Well, I removed all the inner plastics and drilled them

Glad its all sorted but shame you've had to fork out another £90ish quid.

With regards to recovery and what not. I'm pretty sure if you have one of the solid bars then it comes under the same catagory as trailoring it. so it doesnt have to be insured taxed mot'd, Basically if you did your trailor licence then you could buy a little run around that can tow your car two and from trackdays and get a mate, brother, sister or who ever just to steer your car when in it. So you only have to store the Towing car and the track car. I think thats right anyway

Yeah used one of them a few times moving the car around locally, but its a bit dodgy doing it over 150+ miles back home, considering someone has to be sat in the car being towed too... As wilky said any wheels on the floor means it has to be taxed and insured Only way around it is to find a company that dosent give a s**t about recovering from wherever or get a trailer and decent tow car!

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Plus if its got a driveshaft/gearbox issue you'd be stuffed

 

[chrispy.clio]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Plus if its got a driveshaft/gearbox issue you'd be stuffed

In that case you could remove the drive shafts before going home but yes it could be a pain.

 

[ForceIndia]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Almost as bad as this lol

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

In that case you could remove the drive shafts before going home but yes it could be a pain.

Wheel bearings would fall apart then.

 

[chrispy.clio]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Wheel bearings would fall apart then.

Lol well my idea is a bit of a no no then. Sorry F0xy i'm out of ideas lol

 

[JD]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Has this been ITB'd yet

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Too many Mk1 172/F4R ITB'd ones about, common as muck!

 

[jamie rigby]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Almost as bad as this lol

fk me!

Too many Mk1 172/F4R ITB'd ones about, common as muck!

Not that it needs ITBs altho it'd be amazing if you did! i know your defo not going to im just saying lol

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Almost as bad as this lol

Any idea why it went Warren?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Removed the drivers 'good' hub earlier and fitted my spare, only to find the threads were starting to f**k up on it too, similar to the other one that was knackered after Rockingham. Although, the wheel bolts have never come loose on the drivers side, so im not sure whats happened. Renault monkey metal not like a lot of wheel changes?

A solution is in progress anyway...

 

[Rob]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I actually love the dedication that goes into this, and the acceptance that, no matter what, at the end of the day, its French, so it will break without reason.

I still remember when you had the mk2 and was asking all the dumb questions I do now. lol!

 

[Kneel]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Removed the drivers 'good' hub earlier and fitted my spare, only to find the threads were starting to f**k up on it too, similar to the other one that was knackered after Rockingham. Although, the wheel bolts have never come loose on the drivers side, so im not sure whats happened. Renault monkey metal not like a lot of wheel changes?

A solution is in progress anyway...

Converting to studs?

 

[ROB91]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

wow caant believe the drivers side hub has started to do that aswel jord, do you still think its down the your track wheels with the fitment?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Converting to studs?

Yeah but not the usual 'screw in with locktite' studs - more in the next few days as ive still got one or two bits still to machine up/modify...

wow caant believe the drivers side hub has started to do that aswel jord, do you still think its down the your track wheels with the fitment?

Not sure, it was only one of them on the drivers side. The wheel has never come loose on that side either, so its pretty wierd!

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Surprised you haven't converted to studs before

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Ive been meaning to for ages now, but never bothered as I always thought the 'screw in' type stud conversions were over priced for what they were. After a chat with Andrew Cooke I decided to go down the route that he took with his 5 as it costs FAR less and just requires a bit of machine work

 

[maynard]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Ive been meaning to for ages now, but never bothered as I always thought the 'screw in' type stud conversions were over priced for what they were. After a chat with Andrew Cooke I decided to go down the route that he took with his 5 as it costs FAR less and just requires a bit of machine work

what idea you going with?

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Can i show mine?

 

[northy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Removed the drivers 'good' hub earlier and fitted my spare, only to find the threads were starting to f**k up on it too, similar to the other one that was knackered after Rockingham. Although, the wheel bolts have never come loose on the drivers side, so im not sure whats happened. Renault monkey metal not like a lot of wheel changes?

A solution is in progress anyway...

are you hand torquing them up - mine have never done that and ive done endless wheel changes over the years

 

[bmh.01]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

what idea you going with?

Pressed in ones at a guess?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

are you hand torquing them up - mine have never done that and ive done endless wheel changes over the years

I use a torque wrench every time they go back on - are yours off numerous times every week though? Then trackdays and everything inbetween...

Pressed in ones at a guess?

Yup correct

 

[Nickharding]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yup correct

Weld them from the back to make sure they dont come out

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Weld them from the back to make sure they dont come out

Mentioned welding earlier in the thread with regards to 'screw in' stud kits, bit more info...

Hubs are made from high strength steel and normally a forging. If you weld the studs onto the hub you could disrupt the heat treatment and cause stress in the metal. Personally i'd just araldite them in, they wont go anywhere.

I'd disagree that hubs are made of anything special, i think it's a cheap casting. But I do agree with you that the heat from the welding is likely just to give a material/mechanical stress concentration. Is araldite heat resistant? It'd be worth finding out what it will withstand.

I see your point about the fatigue jord. It's seen a lot of use. It's a bit worrying that they are 172 hubs, they should be designed for a heavier car. I wonder if it'd be possible to buy the outer part of the hub separately new from somewhere/stealers. Atleast then you know that it's unused.

The way ive done it will be 100% fine, its basically exactly the same as many OEM manufacturers use from the factory. They are acctually OEM studs that are being used, just the Renault hubs modified to accept them. Il update in the next few days once they are done and finished

 

[Nickharding]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Nice one Jord, looking forward to the update as i know what to expect

 

[Kneel]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I was going to say pressed in shouldn't need welding, the nissan has studs standard and they are pressed in... What modifications do you need to do to the hub Jord?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Finally got the hubs finished today, all good and miles easier to change wheels Heres how I did it...

Start with two well used 172 hubs that have been machined down to fit my setup (4mm off the shock mounting face)...

Press (or hammer) the stub axles out...

Removed the sleeves from the uprights (Using a hammer and very big socket) and cleaned the hubs up with a grinder/wire wheel...

Next, had a right f*cking nightmare getting the bearing seat off the stub axle. I always seem to have problems with this, every time ive done one! There is no lip on the bottom edge to get a bearing puller onto it (weather thats factor bearings or just the way it is who knows!). Major amounts of heat with an oxy torch and chisel got nowhere so out came the grinder...

Finally got them off in the end. Next, ordered some studs and open ended nuts from Rally Design. These are Ford style studs which are a press fitment - M12x1.5 thread, I got the longest ones available which were 63mm I think. They were £0.95+VAT each, with the nuts being the same price (Open ended M12x1.5 nuts with a 60degree taper). When you compare that price to some of the 'screw in' kits it seems very cheap!

As you can see the studs have a 'gripper' near the head which is what gets pressed into the hub, then these retain it...

Next I had to modify the stub axles to take the studs. I had a good think and measure to check if the heads of the studs would clear the hub upright itself once they were pressed in, it looked like it could be close on the 'raised' inner, so decided to take some material off the back of the stub to aid with clearence.

I could have counter-bored it, but the holes seemed a bit too close to the edge of the stub to be boring holes big enough for the head to sit in. Cleaned the stubs up first then set about removing some material. They were a tad over 12mm thick when I started, took them down to 9mm.

~12mm

9mm

The last modification required to allow the studs to be pressed in was to drill the holes out to 1/2", which is the standard size of the holes on a Ford hub...

I tried the studs in the holes and they were a perfect fit upto the splined part as expected, as they would now need pressing in...

While the above was in progress I gave the clean uprights a coat of hammerite too..

Now that the stub axles were ready for the studs to be pressed in I got on with it. As you can see the heads of the studs are very close to the edge and Im not sure if counter boring them would have had enough room to play with without taking the actual edge off the hub...

Then pressed a pair of new bearings into the uprights...

And pressed the whole lot together...

As you can see the clearance could have been a tad tight on the inner raised bit of the upright if the material had not been removed...

Last job was to fit them to the car - so off the hubs came. Standard vs Modified Stud Conversion...

Fitted to the car and brakes reassembled...

And back on its wheels!

As you can see the studs are quite long as I went for the longest ones (63mm), but its not really a problem as Im using open ended nuts, but it shows shorter ones could be used if required.

So much easier to fit wheels now compared to before, really glad I made the effort in doing it. Also I now have a pair of spare hubs in good condition that can be taken to trackdays incase I ever need them due to bearing failure or whatever else Quick breakdown of what it cost me to do..

• 8 x M12x1.5, 63mm Long Stud - £1.12 (RallyDesign: SS37)
• 8 x M12x1.5, Open Ended Nut - £1.12 (RallyDesign: SS41)
• 2 x Front Hub Bearings - £19.00 each
• Machine Work - Lathe/Milling etc - Free!

Total Cost: £55.86

Last time I looked some of the 'screw in' style stud conversions were going for quite a bit more than that, especially the ones sold as heavy duty. Happy with the cost also considering as ive got two pretty much brand new front hubs with the bearings too. Thanks to Andrew Cooke for the idea also after seeing it on your R5 and mentioning it earlier in this thread - glad I went through with it now!

More soon!

 

[wilky19]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

cracking work as always.

you doing the rears or leaving them as they are

where do i send my hubs to be done lol

 

[Paddy_g46]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Wont those studs start to slip after a few wheel changes if those gripper bits start to shear off? and therefore it will be come impossible to tighten wheel nuts?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

cracking work as always.

you doing the rears or leaving them as they are

where do i send my hubs to be done lol

Unfortunately the rears cant be done the same as the thread for the wheel bolt is on the disc itself and not a hub Ive seen them converted to rear hubs before but it means bigger disks I think which is more effort than its worth really. The rears take very little load in comparison to the fronts anyway, just glad of no more dodgy threads on the front hubs!

Wont those studs start to slip after a few wheel changes if those gripper bits start to shear off? and therefore it will be come impossible to tighten wheel nuts?

It took around 3 tonne in the press to get them fully seated, I doubt they are going anywhere at all fast... Considering Ford/many other manufacturers use the exact same studs and method from the factory I should hope that I wont have any problems!

 

[maynard]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cracking work, I wish I had your patience!

 

[Daz Clio Cup]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

nice one again f0xy

 

[maynard]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Jord, what was the outcome of this thread in the end? I've rounded off my nut on the brake line too trying to change them yesterday and it was stuck stupid tight - but the passenger one was nice and easy!

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?363714-Rounded-off-Brake-Line....&highlight=

 

[Nafoff]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

great work mate, it is soooo much easier changing wheels with studs isn't it...

 

[david hodson]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Good job
if u cant get your bearing puller legs behind the inner of the bearing
u need a bearing clamp , then put the legs behind the clamp

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Jord, what was the outcome of this thread in the end? I've rounded off my nut on the brake line too trying to change them yesterday and it was stuck stupid tight - but the passenger one was nice and easy!

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?363714-Rounded-off-Brake-Line....&highlight=

Used a grinder and cut it off, then went to the scrap yard and took the complete line off another car - luckily it was the shortest one!

Good job
if u cant get your bearing puller legs behind the inner of the bearing
u need a bearing clamp , then put the legs behind the clamp

Cool, il have a look into that!

 

[maynard]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Used a grinder and cut it off, then went to the scrap yard and took the complete line off another car - luckily it was the shortest one!

Yeah luckily mines the shortest one too, looks like I'm gonna be having a new pipe made up for mine.