Piper Cams VS Cat Cam 428 (RESULTS)

[Andyman]

Had my 428's mapped yesterday after replacing the Piper re-grinded cams. Heres the results.
The car is running exactly the same mods in both runs and the results have a gap of 11 months.

As you can see, peak power and torque is down by only 2 bhp and 5 lb/ft with the 428's over the Pipers but the Pipers slaughter the Cat Cams all the way through the rev range below 5k rpm.

Im loosing about 25 lb/ft of torque at 2500 rpm

Unless theres a problem with the car which im going to look into, this shows spending over 300 quid less gives you more power MAYBE? haha

Plus side with the 428's the kick at VVT feels like a Vtec yo, and the engine idles a lot smoother.

Cheers to Paul for the mapping



Piper Cams:

Cat Cam 428's

 

[powey]

Whats happened to the pipers now?

 

[sideways danny]

fairly close to what i'd expected 421s would have lost less midrange but 428s do ok

 

[Andyman]

Scrap lol

Basically Pipers were removed after the top end had a dephaser type noise. On 2 places on the inlet cam theres was cam wear in the journals due to ''possible'' oil starve thanks to a block channel so swapped them for the 428's.

 

[Andyman]

fairly close to what i'd expected 421s would have lost less midrange but 428s do ok

I expected it too but thought the advantage would be the 428's would blown the Pipers into the weeds top end of the rev range when they came on song.

Bascially at best they can only match the Pipers after 5k rpm and for a extra 300 quid + premium :dapprove:

 

[Greeny.]

Very interesting! A shame that pre-profiles from my experience are normally quite loud?

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

did you make 175lbs/ft with the Pipers? If so there's your problem, find a reliable and realistic RR

 

[kevo66]

did you make 175lbs/ft with the Pipers? If so there's your problem, find a reliable and realistic RR

RST's is bang on though?!

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

single TB Clio's do not and cannot make 175lbs/ft on a mild tuned engine though. If that was a different RR then again, pointless comparing, they all read different anyway. People put way to much stock in RR's though either way

 

[Andyman]

Very interesting! A shame that pre-profiles from my experience are normally quite loud?

Mine where fine. Engine used to rock about a lot, pretty lumpy and not nice to drive town traffic wise but certanly didnt live up to their name of ''River Dance cams'', lol

Did over 60k on them. For 300 quid cant complain power wise.

 

[Greeny.]

Mine where fine. Engine used to rock about a lot, pretty lumpy and not nice to drive town traffic wise but certanly didnt live up to their name of ''River Dance cams'', lol

Did over 60k on them. For 300 quid cant complain power wise.

lol river dance cams.

I had a set in my old motor and I also had a problem in traffic They where from Piper also :/

 

[Andyman]

Re-grinds?

 

[Greeny.]

Re-grinds?

Yup

 

[Andyman]

single TB Clio's do not and cannot make 175lbs/ft on a mild tuned engine though. If that was a different RR then again, pointless comparing, they all read different anyway. People put way to much stock in RR's though either way

Car was rolling roaded on a different set of rollers, location and type wise prior to the final mapping session as per above result on the Piper graph with a difference of 4 lb/ft or so between results (161 - 165 lb/ft) so id say thats pretty accurate in comparison.

Prior to final Piper map, car did a best of 14.4 on the quarter. Never had a chance to get it on the strip after final mapping sesh on the Pipers but that will give me a rough guide what the difference on the road compared and how the 428's perform

No questions about it, the car feels flat as f**k before VVT

 

[480bhp.com]

All things being relative (There only graphs afterall) but i'd throw the cat cams and re fit the pipers, thanks to your work above, 428's won't be making there way inside my engine :nono:

Come on Yoz, sort the Schricks

Chris

 

[Whiteley]

Interesting results they are.

 

[Andyman]

All things being relative (There only graphs afterall) but i'd throw the cat cams and re fit the pipers, thanks to your work above, 428's won't be making there way inside my engine :nono:

Come on Yoz, sort the Schricks

Chris

Dont be too hasty to write them off tho. Like i say, could be a problem with the car? Fingers crossed we'll get a look at it this weekend

Lad on here was running Schricks and had a really poor time of it. No 2 cars are the same and some mods work well with one and not with another..

IMO better off doing a full on conversion like turbo, TB's, Supercharger than *****ing about scraping 1 or 2 brake on bolt ons.

 

[sideways danny]

No questions about it, the car feels flat as f**k before VVT

you know VVT activates at 1800rpm dont you?

 

[Andyman]

Thought it kicked in about 5k rpm area :S

 

[Russ_16v]

lol thats simply the engine 'coming on cam' matey, the VVT clicks in at circa 1800 rpm and cuts out at 6500 i think from memory (?) and is to help driveability at low revs, and emissions

Its plastered everywhere that the 5k kick thing is VVT, in fact a chap i was talking to the other day told me it was V-tec bless him lol

 

[Andyman]

Your right Russ. I always thought VVT was the ''kick'' similer idea to the Vtec cam switch over thingy - everydays a school day as they say

 

[DannyR]

So your the reason my SC has been slacking and not ready this saturday lol!

Its not bad losing a bit of power for driveabilty TBH!

 

[K-Tec Racing]

there are other factors that contribute to the 5k kick you describe.

EURO 4 emmisons keep the car at lambda 1 for a fair time, circa 4k iirc.. and then its allowed to goto the fueling to get max power...... and inline with peak VE of the engine gives a great kick..

its why when you map them properally you dont feel the kick as the timing and fueling is for peak power mid range and on stock cams is very smooth.

 

[Higgy]

Being a sad engineer and wanting to know all the detail. I am confused with the whole Clio cam set up.

Renaultsport's Powertrain Manager 'Francois Ratinet' said in an EVO magazine interview (regarding pre 197 Clio's) that:

'The old Clio had just an on-off system - the timing switched 11 degrees at 5500rpm...'

But the technical manual for F4R 730 states as per Russ_16v the camshaft phase shifter operates between: 1,800 - 6,500 rpm

?

Higgy.

 

[Hutchie]

evo spreading s**t baisically

 

[K-Tec Racing]

The cam advances from its "OFF" state 16 degrees (we are led to believe) to the "power" position.

it does this at about 1800 rpm and above circa 40% load (although I cant be 100% of the exact details, - it can easily be checked with our diagnostic kit)

when we fit aftermarket managment we switch it a little earlier (circa 1400rpm and 30% throttle) and if needed switch it off at 6500 (depending on cam profile and timing) - the switch points are established by testing power figures on the dyno

with turbo applications there are some tricks with cam switching as well.

the 197 has fully variable (which is about 45 degrees of change available)

this is of great benefit when fine tuning an engine, as the cam advance can make a massive difference to power and where required smoothness (light throttle etc) and economy.

you effectivly map the cam like you do timing and fuel.

Andy

 

[Andyman]

So your the reason my SC has been slacking and not ready this saturday lol!

Its not bad losing a bit of power for driveabilty TBH!

LOL


Nah im disappointed tbh.

Was expecting a loss down the rev range but a gain near the top. Iv now got a loss down the bottom and only just about matching what i had at the top, all in all a slower car.

The amount of cash iv spent scraping odd bhp levels is crazy. This is why i say from my experience, forget stupid IK's cams, inlets etc, just head straight for TB's, Turbo or Superchargers or dont bother at all.

 

[Guppy]

So would i be better off with 421's or Schrick's?

Power through the mid to top is important to me

 

[joker83]

Wow the Piper are more better than CatCams...

 

[Andyman]

Been thinking, should Cat Cams be timed just to Renault spec (stock cams) or do they have their own spacific timing figures ?

 

[chrissyp]

Ive just timed my 428's to the standard Renault spec. with the renault timing tools as I was advised by K-tec.

 

[sideways danny]

So would i be better off with 421's or Schrick's?

Power through the mid to top is important to me

with ITBs you want 421s, I told you that months ago

 

[sideways danny]

Been thinking, should Cat Cams be timed just to Renault spec (stock cams) or do they have their own spacific timing figures ?

Ive just timed my 428's to the standard Renault spec. with the renault timing tools as I was advised by K-tec.

they all have specific timing figures so you could technically optomise them, but the tools are pricey (k-tec have them). Generally the stock timing tool works just fine

 

[crazycup_racer]

Timing is critical on the F4 range, power can differentiate between 20-30lbs ft in some stages is not set spot on. Renault timing tools need to be used!!

 

[Andyman]

Renault timing tools were used as it was them who fitted the cams lol (cheaper option amazingly)

Whether its a tooth out....?

 

[Fred@BTM]

who fitted them?

 

[Andyman]

Main dealer. Their s**t hot like, its cos i use them a lot

 

[Fred@BTM]

what other mods? just looks a bit low for 428's

how much torque it make?

 

[Andyman]

Headwork, inlets, 182 mani, zorst, Maxogen, lightend fly.

Made 169 lb/ft peak vs Pipers 175 lb/ft - Peak figure dosent bother me but its the massive loss in made range i cant understand.

Does this to you look like a problem rather than just the cams ?

 

[sideways danny]

Renault timing tools were used as it was them who fitted the cams lol (cheaper option amazingly)

Whether its a tooth out....?

they CAN'T be a tooth out, F4R timing isn't done by teeth. It's eminently possible they didn't use the pulley locking tool however. Doesn't look like the timing is out by the shape of the graph though, probably too conservative mapping