RS2 makes 150lbft for almost entire rev range and 190bhp on standard engine :)

[Chip-mk1]

Looks to me like either you've got a mapping issue at 3200rpm, or your cam timing is wrong, not every car is going to give the lovely perfectly steady torque that -J- has got but you certainly shouldnt see a sharp dip of over 10lbft like you have there.

Torque is tailing off at the top end too far more than it normally would on an RS2, again, cam timing seems a likely suspect.

Shame you dont have a before graph as I think that would have the same issues if it is the cam timing for example.

 

[Chip-mk1]

James was gonna have a word with Charlie To see if he still had the standard graph, which IIRC was about 164bhp, don't recall the torque figure. Hopefully he managed to get the graphs over laid.

Well im sure James will ask him for you mate as TBH its a pretty good advert for him that your car has gained almost exactly 30bhp like that

 

[v16daf]

Looks to me like either you've got a mapping issue at 3200rpm, or your cam timing is wrong, not every car is going to give the lovely perfectly steady torque that -J- has got but you certainly shouldnt see a sharp dip of over 10lbft like you have there.

Torque is tailing off at the top end too far more than it normally would on an RS2, again, cam timing seems a likely suspect.

Shame you dont have a before graph as I think that would have the same issues if it is the cam timing for example.

Timing belt and dephaser was changed two weeks before the mapping by Danny at 519 Automotive, if you remeber Ollie Cufflins cup, that made very similar results to mine. Possible to do with RS Tuning??

 

[Sir_Dave]

Personally, id get the cam timing checked as well, might as well - only 50 quid or so, but removes that as the possibility of the power loss.

If thats fine, then get the mapped looked into i guess? Timing is easier to check than a map though - i would have thought?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Timing belt and dephaser was changed two weeks before the mapping by Danny at 519 Automotive, if you remeber Ollie Cufflins cup, that made very similar results to mine. Possible to do with RS Tuning??

Lots of things it could be, might even be something as simple as a dodgy plug which is breaking down at peak torque and really that should be the strongest part of the curve, lol.

Very hard to try and diagnose over the internet.

First place to go logically would be MWM as they map and fit on the RS2 often and work very closely with Stone Automotive (ie James from JMS's new company) and as such know more about the RS2 than anyone else really. But probably not convenient for you geographically!

Go to your nearest set of rollers and get a wideband reading taken through the rev range seems the simplest first step.

 

[RSTuning]

Lots of things it could be, might even be something as simple as a dodgy plug which is breaking down at peak torque and really that should be the strongest part of the curve, lol.

Very hard to try and diagnose over the internet.

First place to go logically would be MWM as they map and fit on the RS2 often and work very closely with Stone Automotive (ie James from JMS's new company) and as such know more about the RS2 than anyone else really. But probably not convenient for you geographically!

Go to your nearest set of rollers and get a wideband reading taken through the rev range seems the simplest first step.

Overlayed with another RS2 car on my dyno this car makes 7lbft more at 2500 and only 4lbft less in the dip, everywhere else is pretty close. AFR is 12.5 at that point, same as the others we mapped. I also showed Tom and James how much a full AFR difference makes, which was not a lot! Judging by how the mani works with cams i'd suggest the intake cam is advanced a couple of degrees causing the extra torque and then the dip.

Also you need to remember that every car JMS tested as SRR ran more there compared to here.

 

[v16daf]

Lots of things it could be, might even be something as simple as a dodgy plug which is breaking down at peak torque and really that should be the strongest part of the curve, lol.

Very hard to try and diagnose over the internet.

First place to go logically would be MWM as they map and fit on the RS2 often and work very closely with Stone Automotive (ie James from JMS's new company) and as such know more about the RS2 than anyone else really. But probably not convenient for you geographically!

Go to your nearest set of rollers and get a wideband reading taken through the rev range seems the simplest first step.

Don't get me wrong the car pulls a lot better with it on, I was just comparing the two different cars. But as we know F4r's are so random in power output! Plugs were also changed the same time as the timing belt. Suppose your comment on mapping is true, I should have gone South as they may know more about the RS2! It's a relitively new product, so it's bound to develop further in my view

 

[v16daf]

Overlayed with another RS2 car on my dyno this car makes 7lbft more at 2500 and only 4lbft less in the dip, everywhere else is pretty close. AFR is 12.5 at that point, same as the others we mapped. I also showed Tom and James how much a full AFR difference makes, which was not a lot! Judging by how the mani works with cams i'd suggest the intake cam is advanced a couple of degrees causing the extra torque and then the dip.

Also you need to remember that every car JMS tested as SRR ran more there compared to here.

So in other words my cams are slightly out?

 

[RSTuning]

It might not be that but looking at the stock graph it's quite possible. I always find they tend to make the same curve on the stock map they are going to end up with when mapped but with more all over....

TBH though you wont feel that on the road anyway, correct me if i'm wrong?

 

[RSTuning]

Also if you look at 2500 on your graph and the SRR graph there's 15lbft in your favour!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Overlayed with another RS2 car on my dyno this car makes 7lbft more at 2500 and only 4lbft less in the dip, everywhere else is pretty close. AFR is 12.5 at that point, same as the others we mapped. I also showed Tom and James how much a full AFR difference makes, which was not a lot! Judging by how the mani works with cams i'd suggest the intake cam is advanced a couple of degrees causing the extra torque and then the dip.

Also you need to remember that every car JMS tested as SRR ran more there compared to here.

The trophy that this thread was on about altered by 1 AFR point and a couple of degrees of timing, and it gained 10lbft for almost the entire rev range, so while fuelling alone might not make a big difference, fuelling and a bit of timing together certainly does.

Like you say though, the slight extra peak before and the tail off at the top end, do look like advanced inlet cam timing than anything else.

This issue now of course is that if he has the cam timing corrected, it will then throw the map out if you have mapped it correctly based on incorrect cam timing.

As im sure you know, really every F4R should have it's timing checked before its ever mapped, but customers dont generally want to pay 100 quid or whatever just for someone to look at their cams and possibly not need to alter anything so I can see why you wouldnt insist on doing it as it would make you uncompetitive if you did.

 

[aucky]

I made the same figures as you daf. Its annoying when having to defend your choice in the product to people who haven't driven it.
But as I'm sure you know, it drives great so I just have to accept I won't be winning the numbers game. As mentioned RST tends to have fairly conservative rollers?

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH though you wont feel that on the road anyway, correct me if i'm wrong?

Its surprising how far out an engine needs to be before its really obvious when driving, rolling roads are a lot more detailed than any person feels generally.

 

[RSTuning]

The trophy that this thread was on about altered by 1 AFR point and a couple of degrees of timing, and it gained 10lbft for almost the entire rev range, so while fuelling alone might not make a big difference, fuelling and a bit of timing together certainly does.

Like you say though, the slight extra peak before and the tail off at the top end, do look like advanced inlet cam timing than anything else.

This issue now of course is that if he has the cam timing corrected, it will then throw the map out if you have mapped it correctly based on incorrect cam timing.

As im sure you know, really every F4R should have it's timing checked before its ever mapped, but customers dont generally want to pay 100 quid or whatever just for someone to look at their cams and possibly not need to alter anything so I can see why you wouldnt insist on doing it as it would make you uncompetitive if you did.

Yes but if it's in the "sweet spot" it won't make much difference.

You can throw timing at them lower down and it does not do too much and unless you have corrected ALL the functions inside the ECU the car will never be the same on the road and it will more than likely knock it's tits off.

 

[RSTuning]

Its surprising how far out an engine needs to be before its really obvious when driving, rolling roads are a lot more detailed than any person feels generally.

That was directed to the owner of the Clio with the dip. a Dyno will highlight EVERYTHING and of course I know that

 

[Chip-mk1]

I made the same figures as you daf. Its annoying when having to defend your choice in the product to people who haven't driven it.
But as I'm sure you know, it drives great so I just have to accept I won't be winning the numbers game. As mentioned RST tends to have fairly conservative rollers?

Trouble is F4R's vary so much to begin with. 183 might be REALLY good going on one engine, and barely more than standard on another.


If we get 183 I'll be over the moon and think the RS2 has done us proud, ours was only 169 with an exhaust and matched inlets.

The difference at under 4K versus standard is the biggest thing that has transformed ours though, not sure on the numbers yet (hoping to get it on the rollers soon even though I havent totally finished the map yet, just as a reference point) but under 4K it feels really strong compared to before, and 4K is 85mph in fifth, so its right where I want it on the motorway where I dont want to have to change down a gear all the time.

 

[aucky]

Motorway driving is excellent with it. 60-80mph in 5th is so effortless compared to standard.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Motorway driving is excellent with it. 60-80mph in 5th is so effortless compared to standard.

Agreed, totally!

First time Ive driven ours for a long motorway journey was at the weekend, and it really did feel like a totally different car at those speeds in 5th, its like a diesel now, and yet still pulls hard at the 7500rpm limiter too

 

[v16daf]

It might not be that but looking at the stock graph it's quite possible. I always find they tend to make the same curve on the stock map they are going to end up with when mapped but with more all over....

TBH though you wont feel that on the road anyway, correct me if i'm wrong?

No I don't feel it, it pulls like a train all the way up to 7500 rpm. I am very happy with the product. As Aucky states it drives like a diesel! When I do put my foot down it feels so much faster than it was! No doubt about it. If I was aloud to decide again I would purchase the RS2. So many people slate it on this forum and they truly need to try one!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well TBH if you are that happy with it you may as well leave it mate

If when you do get the cambelt changed next it turns out it was out, I guess you need tobe asking pretty please if Paul will tweak the map for you with the cam timing correct without charging full remap prices as he's not got to change much! lol

 

[shiftspark]

When's yours going to be done chip? The sooner it's done it will hopefully show the rs manifold in a good light .

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'll get it to the rollers this week sometime if I can get a chance, the map is pretty much there now I think,so just a case of getting a reading out of it really, then I'll overlay the graphs to really show the difference.

I think what will happen is:
big gain at bottom end (ie 10% more torque probably)
no significant change in the middle (ie might lose or gain half a dozen lbft but nothing massive either way as basically feels the same there)
big gain at the top end (feels like 10% more power at the top end TBH although obviously only the rollers can say for sure!)


Both me and the mrs much prefer it to drive now, its weird to find a modification that gives so much extra torque at the bottom and also gains at the top, I didnt expect that at all from looking at it, could see why it would gain at the top end, but didnt expect so much lower down, thats been a real bonus!

 

[v16daf]

Well TBH if you are that happy with it you may as well leave it mate

If when you do get the cambelt changed next it turns out it was out, I guess you need tobe asking pretty please if Paul will tweak the map for you with the cam timing correct without charging full remap prices as he's not got to change much! lol

Lol, Jaffa cakes day ;-).

 

[Luke.]

Oh and I don't think you're a c*nt because of the way you speak to me - I know my knowledge leaves something to be desired - I think you're a c*nt because on 3 out of 5 threads I open on here every day you're talking down to people without any idea of their experience or knowledge. All you EVER do is talk down to people. You need to drop the god complex.

This is without a doubt the best post of the whole thread and in my history of CS..

Hero.

 

[Dan519]

Lol, Jaffa cakes day ;-).

your cam timing is bang on. Remember how bad it was before removing the old belt? it's absolutely spot **** on. End.

 

[aucky]

Mine is the same and I had my belts done at Birchdown, so I'm just putting it down to F4R randomness.

 

[v16daf]

your cam timing is bang on. Remember how bad it was before removing the old belt? it's absolutely spot **** on. End.

Yeah I know the timing is spot on, it pulled loads better after you worked your magic

 

[v16daf]

Mine is the same and I had my belts done at Birchdown, so I'm just putting it down to F4R randomness.

+1

 

[gti6steve]

This is without a doubt the best post of the whole thread and in my history of CS..

Hero.

+1

 

[Laine_16v]

no significant change in the middle (ie might lose or gain half a dozen lbft but nothing massive either way as basically feels the same there)

lololololololol

 

[TimR26]

lololololololol

Another worthwhile contribution from you.....

I'm sure he doesn't give a s**t about what you think!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Another worthwhile contribution from you.....

Lol

I'm sure he doesn't give a s**t about what you think!

Not quite true actually mate, I am interested in Laine's opinion, he might seem to have a bit of a bee in his bonnet over the RS2 for some reason but that doesnt stop him being someone who's opinion on cars I have an interest in, he's a proper petrol head and has had lots of different spec clio engines, so when he's being sensible I think he has a lot to add.

 

[Laine_16v]

Haha thanks chips, sorry atouba i was trolling a bit.

My opnions on the product are pretty well known by now, i hope some day i'll have the opportunity to drive / ride in a car with an RS2 so i can actually make an informed decision instead of being an internet fan boy

 

[Sir_Dave]

My opnions on the product are pretty well known by now, i hope some day i'll have the opportunity to drive / ride in a car with an RS2 so i can actually make an informed decision instead of being an internet fan boy

Perhaps you could have tried an RS2 on your 'healthy' 186bhp engine, kept the goodness sealed in & got over 200bhp?

Instead of pulling it all apart, fitting some cams and only gaining 5bhp ... which seemed like an utter waste of money lol.

 

[Laine_16v]

Perhaps you could have tried an RS2 on your 'healthy' 186bhp engine, kept the goodness sealed in & got over 200bhp?

Instead of pulling it all apart, fitting some cams and only gaining 5bhp ... which seemed like an utter waste of money lol.

I quite enjoy my mid range torque though

 

[Chip-mk1]

We'll have to meet up some time mate, so you can have a shot of ours
Its a heavy phase 2 with aircon etc and it was only a very average engine to begin with, so its by no means the best way to showcase the RS2, but im still confident that you'll actually find some good in the product if you try it. As contrary to what people think I'll think of your opinon from your trolling on the RS2 threads I actually think that you will be able to look at it objectively compared to what a "normal" 172 phase 2 is like (ie rather than just say, "its rubbish cause its not as quick as my freaky car" like some people would think you would do) as I do think you arent a fool and know these engines are like for varying.

In my opinion the RS2 just makes for a great road car due to the sheer smoothness of it, and for such a simple modification it really is awesome how well it pulls at motorway speeds for just getting from 60-80 without a gearchange etc now compared to before, and its also fantastic the way it just doesnt die off at all at the top end, its not got the midrange peak that yours has with the cams in but what it does have is the standard torque ALL the way so where most 172s really do feel like they are ready for a gearchange well before 7K, ours is still pulling well right upto the 7500rpm limiter.

 

[Sir_Dave]

I quite enjoy my mid range torque though

So do i :rasp:

Have you got a graph for yours Laine? Would be interesting to see how yours compares to Chips once they are both done

 

[Chip-mk1]

Have you got a graph for yours Laine? Would be interesting to see how yours compares to Chips once they are both done

The problem with comparing our particular two cars, is ours started out with 169bhp/145lbft, and IIRC his was 182bhp and 161lbft (im sure laine can correct that if I have remembered wrong)
So in a direct comparison its not fair on the RS2 as his was on so much better a starting point, and in terms of looking at the gains made on each car then the opposite is true and its unfair on the cams as his car was already so epic so therefore harder to improve on.

Really need two much more similar cars to compare from TBH mate!

 

[TimR26]

So do i :rasp:

Have you got a graph for yours Laine? Would be interesting to see how yours compares to Chips once they are both done

Meh

I wouldn't mind your bhp though

 

[Sir_Dave]

Meh

Torque is for towing caravans Tim