I was advised against it saying that the cup spec one when working correctly is more than enough, however I still want one fitted for wet weather use. Where have you fitted yours (if your running one)?
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sonny172cup "track car to race car project"
- Thread starter sonny172cup
- Start date
I was advised against it saying that the cup spec one when working correctly is more than enough, however I still want one fitted for wet weather use. Where have you fitted yours (if your running one)?
Clio 172 & BMW 335D
Yeah when cold they lock up easily but when they are warm them are perfect but just seems that brakes are mainly on the front.
Russ Rallye
ClioSport Club Member
You'd be surprised how much they move even with the pms kit on there, the geo is out on mine every time it gets checked.
Russ
It is really!?
I can't get my little head around that.....
I could understand if there was a knock, or a huge whack up a curb, is that why?
Yep shifts a lot, the stub axles are also a weak point and not very straight from factory. I use different shims on either side to make up the correct camber.
Remember it only has to shift half a mil and your toe has changed by 5min
Well in other news my battery us totally dead so popped to MSAR in SE London to buy a new one, cancelled my trailer collection and geo set up.
Will string car on Friday, unless anyone knows a local place at Combe to get geo checked?
Remember it only has to shift half a mil and your toe has changed by 5min
Well in other news my battery us totally dead so popped to MSAR in SE London to buy a new one, cancelled my trailer collection and geo set up.
Will string car on Friday, unless anyone knows a local place at Combe to get geo checked?
Clio 182
There's a guy in bristol that did mine not long ago, half hour or so from combe that does 4 wheel hunter alignment....he's pretty good and not overly expensive (take cash). Place is a bit of a dive but he just rents space for his setup there and all he does is alignment.
http://www.fcmwheelalignment.co.uk
Thanks for the head up, tbh I will be coming from Kent so don't fancy driving further out.
182cup & 172 racecar
Mine didn't move, and that was after a 100mph backwards into tyre wall at Thruxton!
RACE REPORT: Castle Combe September 2015
Pre-Race Prep
Not a good start to the weekend with a flat battery in the race car, tried everything to recover it by charging and jump starting it, car eventually fired up, but didn't hold its charge. So on Friday I had to drive to MSAR motorsports and safety in SE London www.msar.co.uk to pick up a new battery, in the mean time I missed my trailer pick up time (due to the guy having to leave the country), so all morning was spent phoning around trying to locate a trailer that was free, I finally found a place in Maidstone that had a trailer free, by the time I had collected it I had to cancel my geo set up with Mark Fish...bummer.
I already had spoke to a fellow competitor (Will) to borrow his optical gauges so knew that I could at last resort geo the car at the circuit.
Managed to get to the circuit around 8pm, to be greeted by the rest of the gang...good to see 2 new competitors this meeting too. The car flew through scrutineering but due to Qualifying being so close to Scrutineering, I never had time to do a geo.
QUALI
I made sure I was last out to give me some breathing space to warm up the tyres, still shaken from Silverstones spins I didnt want to take any chances, due to the nature of Combe I softened up the dampers even more to what I was currently running, even though the circuit has had some recent patch work,
The car handled like a dog, and was pretty scary, at times on the straight the car wanted to pull me off the circuit,with some sever bump steer (i BELIEVE) and combined incorrect tracking. Once tyres came on the handling did seem to get better. I managed a shocking 1.21 which put me in 9th position on the grid.
RACE 1:
Prior to the race I strung the car out to check the geo, the front and rear toe was out by miles. So popped the Optics on the front which read 5min toe in (total) and rear was 35min toe in (total) camber was pretty much on withing my race tolerances. So a few quarter turns here and there which out the front toe back to around 10min and adjusted tyre pressures.
Had a very good start off the grid, made good pace into the first bend withing arms reach of Tony Hunter, while I was servery trying to defended from Glover and Raz who was desperately trying to come up on my inside...As I manage to move further away from Glover and Raz, giving me some breathing space and to concentrate on gaining pace on Hunter, however Tony having some serious pace was making good distance...SO I needed to up my game into the braking zones....while in the back of my mind I was having flash backs from Silverstone and not wanted to push my luck into the corners....The car felt so good, handled brilliantly entering and existing the corners, it was just my lack of track knowledge that held me back. Another competitor had a bad off who made friends with a marshals post (driver ok) and car suffered frontal damage, this caused the Safety Car to be deployed, ha, meant I could close up on Hunter and give me a second chance....the SC was out for around 3-4 laps, the race was over which was a bit rubbish, was expecting for a few laps more.
I finished 7th place with quickest time of 1.19 (4s faster than last season).
On board footage, memory card full halfway through safety car).
RACE 2
I didnt touch the car as it felt so spot on in Race 1, apart from the normal pre race checks. I started 7th on the grid and got off to a poor start losing out instantly to Glover who got up on my inside, deciding to take the inside defense line into the first right bend...the inevitable happened.....the rear end spun out and went infield.....the car spun back on to the track facing the other way with Paul Clother in his Clio charging towards me, I braced for impact but swerved at the last minute....pheewwwww...that was close...
Now rear marker I had a lot of making up to do battling through midfield when then all of a sudden one the engine coolant pipes inside the cabin plumbed into the T7 lightweight heater split and started squirting coolant everywhere, steam filled the cabin....at this point I was going to pull over but decided to retire and pit the car as I was near the pit exit so I didn't hindrance the race.
SUMMARY
In summary the car will not be going back out on track as I deem it unsafe to myself and other competitors, there is something that's not right with cars set up. I suspected that the rear beams toe was toeing out, initially the rear tyres not heating up was suspect, but after weaving to generate heat this cant be case.
Suspects causes are
Too much rear toe out
Thrust angle of rear beam out
Rear tyres not heating up enough
Lack of negative camber?
EPAS? (getting used to minimal im put).
Tyre pressures?
Happens in tight right hand turns defensive line.
Rear springs too stiff (570lb) but handled faultlessly mid race
I have done numerous car control courses with my previous job, done many driver training days and plenty of track days, I understand the system of car control and front wheel drive driving techniques, but this is something that I had have no control over,and its not right as its unpredictable, im scratching my head now.
The car has been booked on to a local Hunter maching in a few hours to see what that can see.
Apart from my geo woes, I still had a pretty awesome weekend, good to see old and new faces.
Coolant in footwell.
Pre-Race Prep
Not a good start to the weekend with a flat battery in the race car, tried everything to recover it by charging and jump starting it, car eventually fired up, but didn't hold its charge. So on Friday I had to drive to MSAR motorsports and safety in SE London www.msar.co.uk to pick up a new battery, in the mean time I missed my trailer pick up time (due to the guy having to leave the country), so all morning was spent phoning around trying to locate a trailer that was free, I finally found a place in Maidstone that had a trailer free, by the time I had collected it I had to cancel my geo set up with Mark Fish...bummer.
I already had spoke to a fellow competitor (Will) to borrow his optical gauges so knew that I could at last resort geo the car at the circuit.
Managed to get to the circuit around 8pm, to be greeted by the rest of the gang...good to see 2 new competitors this meeting too. The car flew through scrutineering but due to Qualifying being so close to Scrutineering, I never had time to do a geo.
QUALI
I made sure I was last out to give me some breathing space to warm up the tyres, still shaken from Silverstones spins I didnt want to take any chances, due to the nature of Combe I softened up the dampers even more to what I was currently running, even though the circuit has had some recent patch work,
The car handled like a dog, and was pretty scary, at times on the straight the car wanted to pull me off the circuit,with some sever bump steer (i BELIEVE) and combined incorrect tracking. Once tyres came on the handling did seem to get better. I managed a shocking 1.21 which put me in 9th position on the grid.
RACE 1:
Prior to the race I strung the car out to check the geo, the front and rear toe was out by miles. So popped the Optics on the front which read 5min toe in (total) and rear was 35min toe in (total) camber was pretty much on withing my race tolerances. So a few quarter turns here and there which out the front toe back to around 10min and adjusted tyre pressures.
Had a very good start off the grid, made good pace into the first bend withing arms reach of Tony Hunter, while I was servery trying to defended from Glover and Raz who was desperately trying to come up on my inside...As I manage to move further away from Glover and Raz, giving me some breathing space and to concentrate on gaining pace on Hunter, however Tony having some serious pace was making good distance...SO I needed to up my game into the braking zones....while in the back of my mind I was having flash backs from Silverstone and not wanted to push my luck into the corners....The car felt so good, handled brilliantly entering and existing the corners, it was just my lack of track knowledge that held me back. Another competitor had a bad off who made friends with a marshals post (driver ok) and car suffered frontal damage, this caused the Safety Car to be deployed, ha, meant I could close up on Hunter and give me a second chance....the SC was out for around 3-4 laps, the race was over which was a bit rubbish, was expecting for a few laps more.
I finished 7th place with quickest time of 1.19 (4s faster than last season).
On board footage, memory card full halfway through safety car).
RACE 2
I didnt touch the car as it felt so spot on in Race 1, apart from the normal pre race checks. I started 7th on the grid and got off to a poor start losing out instantly to Glover who got up on my inside, deciding to take the inside defense line into the first right bend...the inevitable happened.....the rear end spun out and went infield.....the car spun back on to the track facing the other way with Paul Clother in his Clio charging towards me, I braced for impact but swerved at the last minute....pheewwwww...that was close...
Now rear marker I had a lot of making up to do battling through midfield when then all of a sudden one the engine coolant pipes inside the cabin plumbed into the T7 lightweight heater split and started squirting coolant everywhere, steam filled the cabin....at this point I was going to pull over but decided to retire and pit the car as I was near the pit exit so I didn't hindrance the race.
SUMMARY
In summary the car will not be going back out on track as I deem it unsafe to myself and other competitors, there is something that's not right with cars set up. I suspected that the rear beams toe was toeing out, initially the rear tyres not heating up was suspect, but after weaving to generate heat this cant be case.
Suspects causes are
Too much rear toe out
Thrust angle of rear beam out
Rear tyres not heating up enough
Lack of negative camber?
EPAS? (getting used to minimal im put).
Tyre pressures?
Happens in tight right hand turns defensive line.
Rear springs too stiff (570lb) but handled faultlessly mid race
I have done numerous car control courses with my previous job, done many driver training days and plenty of track days, I understand the system of car control and front wheel drive driving techniques, but this is something that I had have no control over,and its not right as its unpredictable, im scratching my head now.
The car has been booked on to a local Hunter maching in a few hours to see what that can see.
Apart from my geo woes, I still had a pretty awesome weekend, good to see old and new faces.
Coolant in footwell.
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Popped the car into a local garage for a quick geo check up, I didn't get then to touch anything, just to record the settings.
Overall I'm a bit gutted as these settings arnt a million miles off the original setting, camber on the rear has dropped a bit and front has dropped also, but nothing on there suggests that it could be causing the problem described above.
The front right castor looks suspect though, es as I have the AST top mounts set on maximum positive castor.
Overall I'm a bit gutted as these settings arnt a million miles off the original setting, camber on the rear has dropped a bit and front has dropped also, but nothing on there suggests that it could be causing the problem described above.
The front right castor looks suspect though, es as I have the AST top mounts set on maximum positive castor.
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Random pics
I've almost 6 deg of castor using my AST top mounts, and yours are maxed?! Castor made the most difference to mine IMO, definitely something not right there.
Car's looking great
Suspects causes are
Too much rear toe out
Thrust angle of rear beam out
Rear tyres not heating up enough
Lack of negative camber?
EPAS? (getting used to minimal im put).
Tyre pressures?
Happens in tight right hand turns defensive line.
Rear springs too stiff (570lb) but handled faultlessly mid race
I'd need to drive it,,,,,,,,,,,,,or even better, Book a track day on my day off and I'll come with you and can do some testing with different set ups,
First off though, Get the following
selection of camber shims
softer rear springs ( call me if you wish to know which ones)
Too much rear toe out
Thrust angle of rear beam out
Rear tyres not heating up enough
Lack of negative camber?
EPAS? (getting used to minimal im put).
Tyre pressures?
Happens in tight right hand turns defensive line.
Rear springs too stiff (570lb) but handled faultlessly mid race
I'd need to drive it,,,,,,,,,,,,,or even better, Book a track day on my day off and I'll come with you and can do some testing with different set ups,
First off though, Get the following
selection of camber shims
softer rear springs ( call me if you wish to know which ones)
I do have a selection of proper metal shims 10', 15', 60'. Im looking at doing a test day next month with different spring rates.
The beam is actually sitting straight and toe isn't that bad that would cause the problems.
The beam is actually sitting straight and toe isn't that bad that would cause the problems.
I've almost 6 deg of castor using my AST top mounts, and yours are maxed?! Castor made the most difference to mine IMO, definitely something not right there.
Car's looking great
Thanks, I suspect the operator didn't turn the steering wheel enough due to the laser clamping onto the wheels as it should be reading high 5, low 6s
I've not got any rest days during the week in October but let me know the date and I'll try and book the day off,
I would also suggest getting a couple of people you trust to have a go in it at a track day or something.
Couple of things jump to my mind though.
Your rear spring rates are quite high, mine are quite a bit softer. Also check they are actually what you think they are. I know Dave had a bit of confusion recently as to what he was running at the rear and was actually running much softer springs than first thought due to a mix up at AST, which we finally got to the bottom of.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if maybe they haven't been valved properly, and if they are valved incorrectly adjusting the damping won't have a huge effect as it only adjusts the rebound, the bump damping is fixed.
As regards the alignment the only thing that really leaps out is the front toe, the other measurements shouldn't be causing you that much trouble. The rear toe isn't perfect but it's not that bad and it's not toeing out that's the main thing.
Couple of things jump to my mind though.
Your rear spring rates are quite high, mine are quite a bit softer. Also check they are actually what you think they are. I know Dave had a bit of confusion recently as to what he was running at the rear and was actually running much softer springs than first thought due to a mix up at AST, which we finally got to the bottom of.
Also I wouldn't be surprised if maybe they haven't been valved properly, and if they are valved incorrectly adjusting the damping won't have a huge effect as it only adjusts the rebound, the bump damping is fixed.
As regards the alignment the only thing that really leaps out is the front toe, the other measurements shouldn't be causing you that much trouble. The rear toe isn't perfect but it's not that bad and it's not toeing out that's the main thing.
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Yes the front toe is loaded up on one side, not sure if this was caused by the steering not being straight, as it says on the graph, but the steering wheel was sitting straight so not sure why it said that, or does the machine guess its not straight by wheel angle?
The optics said front was 15min toe out, but doesn't say what each wheel is reading (strings would).
Iv changed my spring rates a few times, these high current spring rates was actually treated on R888, only since changing to the Direzzas iv been having this problem.
Good point about the valving James, rear springs are 100NM fronts 90NM.
The optics said front was 15min toe out, but doesn't say what each wheel is reading (strings would).
Iv changed my spring rates a few times, these high current spring rates was actually treated on R888, only since changing to the Direzzas iv been having this problem.
Good point about the valving James, rear springs are 100NM fronts 90NM.
SharkyUK
ClioSport Club Member
Good to see you racing at Combe mate, but sorry to hear about the woes in race 2. Here are a few pics I managed to grab of you:
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Tricolore Trophy - Castle Combe 2015 by Andy Eder, on Flickr
Great pics them ^
Sonny do you have a photo of your springs/ASTs before you fitted them showing the numbers? Are they Eibach springs or AST springs?
If it seems these violent spins are since fitting the Dunlops, maybe it's simply because they are taking longer to heat up? Maybe you could try some more toe in (I have 40 minutes total on mine) to scrub the rear tyres more.
Sonny do you have a photo of your springs/ASTs before you fitted them showing the numbers? Are they Eibach springs or AST springs?
If it seems these violent spins are since fitting the Dunlops, maybe it's simply because they are taking longer to heat up? Maybe you could try some more toe in (I have 40 minutes total on mine) to scrub the rear tyres more.
I would imagine what the hunter machine has said will be correct, so just your front toe is all that really needs to be adjusted. Your rear beam is straighter than mine, and your camber settings are fairly similiar.
I tend to get my car hunter aligned once a year or after a major strip down, then just string it before a race. Also I use special calibrated string :wink:
If you have changed your spring rates a few time's has the valving ever been looked at? The AST's have a bit of tolerance to change rates without re-valving but not a massive amount.
My springs are 80 front 70 rear. The car is in bits at the moment so if you wanted to borrow my suspension for a track day to try it out let me know.
@Mini182 James thanks for the offer buy going to trial a different spring rate and take it from there, after chatting to a few ppl it seem to point fingers at rears not being brought up to temp enough, i.e driver input on formation lap and the spring rate controlling the balance of the car.
In regards to the valving of the AST I have kept it within the tolerance of the valves, this is my 3rd rear suspension set up so have played about a bit...
Martin, they are AST springs marked 90 and 100 so would indicate the correct NM rate that I ordered.
In regards to the valving of the AST I have kept it within the tolerance of the valves, this is my 3rd rear suspension set up so have played about a bit...
Martin, they are AST springs marked 90 and 100 so would indicate the correct NM rate that I ordered.
Good stuff hope you managed to find a good setup. Just seem Mike Harris's video who was directly behind you when you lost it. Looks like someone pulled the handbrake on! Something definitely isn't right there mate.
Have you tried the R1 compound dunlops? I find them a bit easier to get temp into than the H1.
AST springs are normally marked up length/rate/internal diameter. So your front springs are probably something like - 180.100.61 (180mm long 100nM 61mm internal diameter)
@Mini182 No I haven't tried the R1 only the H1, this is the first season I have tried Dunlops, normally use AO48S/R888. What compound are the R1s
regarding the spring designation that's right and yes mine does have that, there seems to be confusing, I know what my spring rates are and the length and ID, im looking at some option at the moment regarding spring rates as believe that's the main culprit (as well as the rear tyres). If you look at one of the pics Andy took (bottom one) it looks like my rear left tyre is running out inducing positive camber, or could that just be the pic?
regarding the spring designation that's right and yes mine does have that, there seems to be confusing, I know what my spring rates are and the length and ID, im looking at some option at the moment regarding spring rates as believe that's the main culprit (as well as the rear tyres). If you look at one of the pics Andy took (bottom one) it looks like my rear left tyre is running out inducing positive camber, or could that just be the pic?
R1 is their version of a medium compound, H1 is the hard. You have to use the 195/50/15 if you want the R1 compound though as it's not available in 205/50/15.
As the rear suspension compresses you will introduce a very small amount of positve camber compared to your static camber. This is because the wheel follow's the arc set out for it by rear beam bush and suspension pick up points. The rear suspension pick up point/hub is slightly further out than the rear beam pivot bush, so as the wheel moves up it exerts a twisting force on the rear beam and introduce's a small amount of positive camber, this is also not helped by the fact the rear hub is mounted above the center line of the beam so the leverage force is greater.
Have you got a pyrometer? This a good way to see what your suspension is doing and how well the tyres are working.
I thought it wasnt as much due to the fixed axle (beam) but will only induce positive camber if the car c***s a rear wheel. I understand that the more camber shims you add and evenly lowering (even corner weighting) will change the camber in small increments. Just seemed mine was out more than it was suppose to.
Again I am over complicating the original issues, but still interesting to get a full understanding. The thing is most of the books I have about race car set ups are all live rear axle, so most of the FWD set ups is through own experience or passage of information (even if it is correct or not).
Again I am over complicating the original issues, but still interesting to get a full understanding. The thing is most of the books I have about race car set ups are all live rear axle, so most of the FWD set ups is through own experience or passage of information (even if it is correct or not).
And yes I used a pyrometer however camber set ups can cause heat to generate more than they normally would, so I don't really like to use them (through experience).
Cocking a rear wheel means the rear beam can't flex anymore that's all, the stiffer the rear beam the easier it will be to c**k a wheel. My car has rear beam stiffening plates welded on and it c***s a wheel for fun. It also means no amount of extra rear roll stiffness will do any good. Once it turns into a tripod you could have a rear arb as thick as your arm and it wouldn't make any difference.
The fact that's it's a solid rear beam doesn't mean that camber can't be induced, it's all to do with the pick up points. If you moved the rear beam mounting points even further towards the center of the car or further out then you would induce even more camber as the hub would have to follow the arc that has been laid out for it.
That's the point of a pyrometer mate to see if the tyre is being worked evenly, and you will be able to tell if you are running to much or to little camber at a given circuit. This will also be effected by spring rates and roll center etc etc.
182cup & 172 racecar
A pyrometer should tell you all you need to know with tyre temps, thats the bit that is in contact with the tarmac.
I'd be lost without mine tbh.
I'd be lost without mine tbh.
Just seen this... Yes I use one but hard only on test/track days, its very hard to check on a race day due to being kept in the holding area.
Clio 172 & BMW 335D
@sonny172cup @Tony Hunter has either of you got time table for the race at Oulton could have a look at or could you post the times in here so I know when to come for! Cheers
Russ Rallye
ClioSport Club Member
Time table for OP @Josh
https://barc.blob.core.windows.net/barcnet/op-0310-timetable-v3-zp6xx.pdf
I wont be there this time.
https://barc.blob.core.windows.net/barcnet/op-0310-timetable-v3-zp6xx.pdf
I wont be there this time.
182cup & 172 racecar
As above, but I will be there. :tongueout:
