Suspension for Road Going Sprint / Hillclimb

[jp_lcr]

I'm considering moving up to Road Going from Standard Class after finishing this my first season.

The main reason for me is part of the fun trying is develop the car alongside my driving plus a little project through winter.

I know it's a bottomless money pit could be up against 10k race engines etc and know seat time is everything but if can find a development budget max £2000 per winter, I'm thinking...

- NorthloopCup roll centre correction
- BC DS coilovers (original spring position on rear to meet regs) inc BC top mounts (if reg changes allow) for camber/caster
- Pure 18mm front hubcentric spacers /10mm rear stub axel spacers
- Brembo HC front / standard rear discs
- CL6 front / M1144 rear pads
- Motamec wheel, FIA seat, low mounts

Plus free weight loss as regs allow so not get much lower than about 970kg as need full interior trim.

I was thinking spring rates front 8kg rear 12kg so 448lb/672lb (understand rear factors down with original spring position to roughly 470lb?) not bother with ARB.

I'll be on 1A tyres PS3s on Turinis unless rule changes to E marked goes through in which case would probably have to drop something from list above for 15 inch 1.2s and some Extreme VR2s to be competitive.

Then see how we go next season. The year after for example plan might be Gripper / gearbox rebuild, clutch, PMS shifter...

Any thoughts on money better spent elsewhere? Or just save my money and give it another season, spend it on track days, schools etc before think about move classes?

 

[Clio_fool]

Another lovely standard 172 cup lost to weekend motorsport😢.
Personally I'd stick in standard class another season until I'd made as much improvement as possible. That also gives you plenty of time to s rutinise the rule book so you can make better decisions on what parts to change.









And find a cheap 182 to strip 😂👍.

 

[jp_lcr]

it's not lost yet mate... still original, it's being very well looked after as well as raced...

"Too nice to race" has been said a few times. I'm having a good think on what to do. Thinking out loud on a forum that is.

 

[Kev@KAM]

It can always be reverted back to standard.

BC you cannot change the rear springs so 8kg is your only option there.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I would factor in a PMS rear ARB - 19mm should suffice

Pure Motorsport rear anti roll bar - Renault Clio Mk2 - Renaultsport

This Pure Motorsport anti-roll bar kit is suitable for the rear of all Renault Clio Mk2 models including the Renaultsport 172 / 182. This kit features a tubular anti-roll bar manufactured from thick wall CDS tube. The bar features three point adjustment v

www.kamracing.co.uk

Also look at CL RC5 rear pads. You will want as aggressive as a possible for a race car so you maximise braking.

CL Brakes Race Brake pads - Renault Clio Mk2 RS-172 / RS-182

CL Brakes Pad Compounds CL Brakes RC5+ CL Brakes RC5+ has a moderate friction level (friction coefficient of μ=0.4) making it a versatile race brake pad and trackday compound. The RC5+ should be used in low grip situations such as if the car is running

www.kamracing.co.uk

 

[jp_lcr]

Thanks Kev hadnt realised was only 8, you were on my list of people to call for advice

 

[Kev@KAM]

Always happy to help
The benefit of the ARB is it will help increase the rear roll stiffness. I wouldnt go for the 21mm one unless the car was on slicks.

 

[TheCAB]

Go for the Gripper and alter the final drive ratio, this alone will lower times if you learn to drive it to get best out of diff. ARB would be way down the list. Best permitted tyres you can afford. Uprated lowered springs will assist unless you can run to a decent set of coilers for front, although diff work alone will soon eat up your £2000.

 

[bashracing]

- Buy a cheap 172/182 to modify leave yours alone as damage is inevitable
- Spring rates will be too high for a cold 1A tyre (try cooksports on cup shocks)
- rear anti roll bar not allowed as not standard fitment ( suspension mounting points ) so fit PMS axle stiffening kit instead
- PS3 tyres are good excellent from cold and work in all conditions
- RC6 front pads will overwhelm the cold tyres and end up locking up everywhere ( Mintex 1144 F , Standard R )

 

[jp_lcr]

- Buy a cheap 172/182 to modify leave yours alone as damage is inevitable
- Spring rates will be too high for a cold 1A tyre (try cooksports on cup shocks)
- rear anti roll bar not allowed as not standard fitment ( suspension mounting points ) so fit PMS axle stiffening kit instead
- PS3 tyres are good excellent from cold and work in all conditions
- RC6 front pads will overwhelm the cold tyres and end up locking up everywhere ( Mintex 1144 F , Standard R )

Thanks I'm on Mintex 1144 now and PS3s reassuring that you rate them too.

My springs are mismatched across diagonals pattern vs original Cup springs which cant buy anymore.

I was thinking if refreshing suspension anyway take step up to coilovers as move into Road Going as if I started winning in Standard class with updated springs would risk complaints as even Eibach Proline (closest on sale to stock) still lower 3mm vs Cup, unless exceptions are made on basis not made anymore.

My car was cheap to start so have to accept risk

 

[Simbo]

I've read all your comments with great interest as this summer has been my first foray into hill climbing - in my standard 172 Cup. I've only entered 4 events, all at Gurston Down as it's my local venue.
Unfortunately, Gurston has no 'standard' class as such so I find myself in the 1400 to 2000cc 'Roadgoing' class - where I very soon realised that 'roadgoing' actually means 'far from standard'.
Whilst I'm an advocate of experience being the greatest factor in reducing times (experience + increased bravery, that is, since at Gurston you start off by accelerating DOWN hill) after only a couple of meetings I found I was nonetheless replacing the suspension with the Grams springs + new Cup dampers kit from Kam Racing (decent coilovers being too costly for now) together with a Whiteline rear ARB. And yes, if it wasn't for the limited budget I would have also opted for one of the ever popular (Toyo R888R / Extreme VR2 / Nankang AR-1) semi-slick road legal tyres from List 1B. And I'm sure a low ratio LSD would be a brilliant, albeit expensive, asset.

Anyway, getting back to my new Grams springs, when I have only a cup-full of fuel in the tank and with an empty boot the rear ride height still appears far too high.
I chose the Grams springs based on discussions on this forum that they produced a lower ride height compared to Eibach Sportlines etc. but in my experience... the rears seem close to standard Cup ride height?
So it would be very much appreciated if anyone can recommend rear springs that will significantly reduce the rear ride height more than the Grams? (I'm quite happy with the fronts).

I was also interested to read above that PS3s are highly rated as working well from cold. Unfortunately, I don't have them, but since these tyres are the standard 45 profile (I'm currently using 16" Turinis) and given that I will need to go down to 15" wheels to properly accommodate the 50 profile of the above mentioned semi-slick tyre options to avoid increasing the rolling circumference, I'm wondering whether PS3s might be a competitive option on my standard Turinis? Again, any recommends / advice will be gratefully received.

 

[jp_lcr]

I cant really answer on suspension front as not sure what to do next myself but from seeing all reviews and comments times tumble if you are permitted to in your Championship and can afford the Extreme VR2s R5 on 15 inch Pro Race 1.2 alloys, or there are the Interstate DNRT 1b tyres where nearly as good and only £50 a corner, compared to PS3s at £60 in 15 inch or 16 inch at £85 a corner. You could either offset cost by selling Turinis and road tyres or keep those as your wets.

 

[Kev@KAM]

I've read all your comments with great interest as this summer has been my first foray into hill climbing - in my standard 172 Cup. I've only entered 4 events, all at Gurston Down as it's my local venue.
Unfortunately, Gurston has no 'standard' class as such so I find myself in the 1400 to 2000cc 'Roadgoing' class - where I very soon realised that 'roadgoing' actually means 'far from standard'.
Whilst I'm an advocate of experience being the greatest factor in reducing times (experience + increased bravery, that is, since at Gurston you start off by accelerating DOWN hill) after only a couple of meetings I found I was nonetheless replacing the suspension with the Grams springs + new Cup dampers kit from Kam Racing (decent coilovers being too costly for now) together with a Whiteline rear ARB. And yes, if it wasn't for the limited budget I would have also opted for one of the ever popular (Toyo R888R / Extreme VR2 / Nankang AR-1) semi-slick road legal tyres from List 1B. And I'm sure a low ratio LSD would be a brilliant, albeit expensive, asset.

Anyway, getting back to my new Grams springs, when I have only a cup-full of fuel in the tank and with an empty boot the rear ride height still appears far too high.
I chose the Grams springs based on discussions on this forum that they produced a lower ride height compared to Eibach Sportlines etc. but in my experience... the rears seem close to standard Cup ride height?
So it would be very much appreciated if anyone can recommend rear springs that will significantly reduce the rear ride height more than the Grams? (I'm quite happy with the fronts).

I was also interested to read above that PS3s are highly rated as working well from cold. Unfortunately, I don't have them, but since these tyres are the standard 45 profile (I'm currently using 16" Turinis) and given that I will need to go down to 15" wheels to properly accommodate the 50 profile of the above mentioned semi-slick tyre options to avoid increasing the rolling circumference, I'm wondering whether PS3s might be a competitive option on my standard Turinis? Again, any recommends / advice will be gratefully received.

The problem you have that many don't is your car is stripped and the rear lighter than standard. With a fixed suspension setup, removing weight raises the car. As most of the weight you've removed is from the centre and rear then this is where the greatest effect is. Outside of competition it can be addressed with using coilovers and adjustable spring platforms but on a competition car its more tricky (where rules restrict modifications)

My suggestion would be to maybe get some BC Racing rear springs and the rear spring spacers to adjust the rear height to a lower stance. I dont know quite how they will work with the cup dampers but it could be worth a punt

 

[Simbo]

The problem you have that many don't is your car is stripped and the rear lighter than standard. With a fixed suspension setup, removing weight raises the car. As most of the weight you've removed is from the centre and rear then this is where the greatest effect is. Outside of competition it can be addressed with using coilovers and adjustable spring platforms but on a competition car its more tricky (where rules restrict modifications)

My suggestion would be to maybe get some BC Racing rear springs and the rear spring spacers to adjust the rear height to a lower stance. I dont know quite how they will work with the cup dampers but it could be worth a punt
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that, Kev. I'll certainly look into that option...

 

[Mertin]

Hold off on the roll centre kit, under current regs its not allowed however if all the new proposals go through then it will be allowed.

With regards to the rarb, never get any hassle in scotland for having them in road going class

As said with pads, standard rears and mintex / ferrodo pad on the front. Few guys rating PBS pads aswell. I had CL RC6 pads on the front for a season and they were pretty pointless and a nightmare for hillclimbs. More suited for circuits

 

[TheCAB]

Hold off on the roll centre kit, under current regs its not allowed however if all the new proposals go through then it will be allowed.

With regards to the rarb, never get any hassle in scotland for having them in road going class

As said with pads, standard rears and mintex / ferrodo pad on the front. Few guys rating PBS pads aswell. I had CL RC6 pads on the front for a season and they were pretty pointless and a nightmare for hillclimbs. More suited for circuits

In relation to the roll centre kit are you saying that under MSA regs for Road-going Series Production Cars you cannot fit .

 

[Mertin]

In relation to the roll centre kit are you saying that under MSA regs for Road-going Series Production Cars you cannot fit .

Yeah, under current regs you cannot replace components for rose jointed / metal replacements. Cant remember the exact wording. There was a few guys pulled for it in the scottish sprint and hillclimb championship along with solid top mounts. They were checking the whole of the class specifically for these. Some members did challenge it with the msa and didnt get anywhere

 

[Mertin]

Link to the proposals here :

https://www.motorsportuk.org/assets/actionsheetforconsultation-shc-finalv2.pdf

Closing date for consultation has passed, unsure when it will be announced what is going ahead and what is axed

 

[jp_lcr]

Do you know what time of year its normally confirmed on reg changes? This was my first season so figured I'd wait until they are confirmed and any specific Championship changes are done on the back of them before I spend any money!

 

[Mertin]

Sorry cant help on that one

Just seen on facebook that all changes were scrapped due to the volume of emails they received but I wouldn't take that as gospel!

Big thing was they were relaxing the original block rule in modified class which then introduces engine swaps into that class. Alot of guys had spent years and £1000's to get the most out of their engine when now they can get the same power overnight and with widely available parts and gearboxes if the change goes ahead

Uphill racers forum is a good one to keep an eye on for discussions and regs updates

 

[TheCAB]

Yeah, under current regs you cannot replace components for rose jointed / metal replacements. Cant remember the exact wording. There was a few guys pulled for it in the scottish sprint and hillclimb championship along with solid top mounts. They were checking the whole of the class specifically for these. Some members did challenge it with the msa and didnt get anywhere

I know its a nightmare to interpret the regs and opinions can differ, with the MSA being the ultimate arbiter, but looking specifically at the regs in relation to rose joints (spherical bearings) the regs would appear to say that you cannot replace "bushes" with spherical type bearings (only allowed to use polymer type bushes). Also seem to remember they say somewhere about not being able to use solid type top mounts in the class The roll centre kits replace the lower ball joint and track rod end with rose joints (spherical bearings). By definition a ball joint is actually a spherical bearing so it looks like you would just be replacing one spherical bearing type for another. I wonder if its the "suspension pick up" regs part that they are deemed to breach? Or they just don't like the use of rose joints in the class. Particularly interested in this subject matter as it was a mod I was considering.

 

[bashracing]

There are lots of different interpretations on these regs, it all depends on where the event is held,

Rear anti roll bars are deemed to be illegal at Harewood due to the suspension type must remain as per manufacturer ( torsion beam axle in the case of the mk2 clio )
You could argue that the anti roll bar is a torsion beam and it's just increasing the torsional rate.

Roll centre kit deemed to be illegal due to the non standard mounting points and use of all steel spherical joint ( lower ball joint is steel with plastic cup bushings ),
You could argue that the reg refer to chassis mounting points rather than suspension components.

Solid spherical top mounts are allowed but only if they form part of the original coilover manufacturers design,
I use modified OE vauxhall corsa top mounts on the micra and argue that other competitors could fit standard top mounts on their coilover but choose not to.

 

[Mertin]

New proposals to the tyres is causing some confusion and needs cleared up. If going with any eu marked tyre then does this render the tyre lists pointless. Be interesting to see the outcome of all this, will be clear as mud as usual and down to everyones interpretion

 

[TheCAB]

There are lots of different interpretations on these regs, it all depends on where the event is held,

Rear anti roll bars are deemed to be illegal at Harewood due to the suspension type must remain as per manufacturer ( torsion beam axle in the case of the mk2 clio )
You could argue that the anti roll bar is a torsion beam and it's just increasing the torsional rate.

Roll centre kit deemed to be illegal due to the non standard mounting points and use of all steel spherical joint ( lower ball joint is steel with plastic cup bushings ),
You could argue that the reg refer to chassis mounting points rather than suspension components.

Solid spherical top mounts are allowed but only if they form part of the original coilover manufacturers design,
I use modified OE vauxhall corsa top mounts on the micra and argue that other competitors could fit standard top mounts on their coilover but choose not to.

Cheers for information, the regs are certainly difficult to interpret at times. Funny isn't it as the roll centre mods help to align the suspension geometry back to standard in a way but can be deemed as illegal. Ah well onwards and upwards.

 

[Alex H]

Another consideration is that springs must retain original position, so you can't fit a coilover rear on a mk2 clio.

 

[Mr Burns]

Another lovely standard 172 cup lost to weekend motorsport😢.
Personally I'd stick in standard class another season until I'd made as much improvement as possible. That also gives you plenty of time to s rutinise the rule book so you can make better decisions on what parts to change.









And find a cheap 182 to strip 😂👍.

Agree with this... Buy a modded one or find a cheap 182 to get stuck into.

 

[jp_lcr]

To close out this thread thanks for thoughts everyone, decided to go with OEM suspension refresh to stay in standard class and just try to get quicker with more seat time and a bit of coaching 👍🏻