How do you ensure that the car is level? Applies how ever you do it not just your way, although could be more difficult with one wheel off.
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Toastfrenzy's Tin Top, some say...........
- Thread starter Toastfrenzy
- Start date
182 Trophy
With McPh struts its quite easy to make adjustments relative as you have a near 1:1 motion ratio.
So as long as you have a measurement to begin with while its level, you can make relative adjustments while its jacked up.
That is how I understand it, anyway. I'm still trying to figure out suspension, so I'm happy to be corrected.
So as long as you have a measurement to begin with while its level, you can make relative adjustments while its jacked up.
That is how I understand it, anyway. I'm still trying to figure out suspension, so I'm happy to be corrected.
Pete your theory is absolutely correct and that's what I plan to have along with a rig so I can string the wheels.
A bump steer gauge, a good camber gauge and a string rig and you can do everything in the one go in about 20 mins while only taking the front wheels of once.
A bump steer gauge, a good camber gauge and a string rig and you can do everything in the one go in about 20 mins while only taking the front wheels of once.
Measure the centre of hub nuts from the ground, on level ground you can even adjust at the same ride height this way - both wheels off at once.
Chase Racing Clio
Pete, don't you mean measure the centre of the hub nuts to the eyebrow? The relationship between ground and centre of wheel will only change with tyre pressure...
Sort of hoping this will remain a static measurement as the springs will dictate this when weight is on the wheels and or jack and blocks under the hub ball joints\wish bones - thinking I won't be able to influence this gap unless I raise or lower the spring collars with WOW?
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You could even measure the gap from the bottom of the sill to floor with wheels on, jack up wheels off, support and lower both jacks under the hubs until the gap is the same, or use any height as long as the relative measurements each side are the same from the floor the car will be level?
Ah - thanks for confirmation, glad I'm not totally barking up the wrong tree, seems my time studying aeronautical engineering in the RAF wasn't wasted after all.
182 Trophy
Level will do? If on a slope (as long as not a hill) as long as you've two pads for front wheels that are level to each other is enough to start from, need bit of wood between the two with spirit level to get level and there your are. May be a bit too simplistic perhaps.
Chase Racing Clio
Pete.... let me get this straight. In order to measure ride height you're jacking the car up, taking the wheels off, dropping it on to blocks or something and then measuring from the ground to the centre of the hub????
I totally disagree with this method, there are so many innacuraccies in this!
Firstly, even if you have the car on level ground, the surface could be uneven. Secondly, the items you drop the car on to may be slightly different (axle stands aren't manufactured to a tight tolerance). Thirdly and probably most importantly, there will be hysteresis from jacking the car up and bringing it back down, hence why you should bounce the car around a few times to get it to it's representative position. Something that I think would not be possible when you've got it resting on blocks or stands.
The correct way to measure ride height (for purposes of making a level car) is from a sprung part of the car to an unsprung part, ie eyebrow to wheel centre.
If you want to figure out how much the ride height will change versus the turns of the spring seat, do 3 measurements across the range and calculate how many turns equates to 1mm of ride height change then you'll have a conversion table to work from. You can then refer to that every time you make an adjustment. You'll only have to remove the wheel once!
I totally disagree with this method, there are so many innacuraccies in this!
Firstly, even if you have the car on level ground, the surface could be uneven. Secondly, the items you drop the car on to may be slightly different (axle stands aren't manufactured to a tight tolerance). Thirdly and probably most importantly, there will be hysteresis from jacking the car up and bringing it back down, hence why you should bounce the car around a few times to get it to it's representative position. Something that I think would not be possible when you've got it resting on blocks or stands.
The correct way to measure ride height (for purposes of making a level car) is from a sprung part of the car to an unsprung part, ie eyebrow to wheel centre.
If you want to figure out how much the ride height will change versus the turns of the spring seat, do 3 measurements across the range and calculate how many turns equates to 1mm of ride height change then you'll have a conversion table to work from. You can then refer to that every time you make an adjustment. You'll only have to remove the wheel once!
Understand what you are saying, I have set my ride height as you say - centre of hub to eyebrow (have also done bottom of sill, just behind front wheel, to car ramp floor before now) and when I say measure from centre of hub to floor (probably didn't explain too well) this will enable the car to be returned to a representative position with out the wheels on once the hubs are on jacks other supports, and if the measurement from the hub centre is the same with or with out bouncing it's ready?
I know what you mean about the settling the suspension as years ago when setting customers cars tracking, this had to be done after each up adjust down and check - not relevant with full length ramps, turn plates for front wheel and something like a hunter machine.
I plan to, once the Cup has been set up this weekend, see if this all works. Get a camber gauge, measure the floor to hub and hub to eyebrow for each side. Jack up, wheels off, support from below the hubs - return the hubs to the same height off the ground (check the hub to eyebrow gap) and then measure the camber from the brake disc. I can only just about bounce the rear suspension of the Cup - never managed to bounce the front!
Not too sure about the quality of my level surface but if my gauge reads -ve 2.5 for each side then can't say fairer than that.
This is a portable (easy) solution that I can take to the pits if need be.
How do I adjust\measure spring height? I have a metal rod with letters on (6" extension bar) that I place on the top of the fixing bracket of the suspension strut and the letter where the adjusting collar for the spring is along side on my measuring device is what I transfer to the other side - I've given up with corner weight's (for now), battery etc needs to be relocated as had a 60lb difference across one of the diagonals before.
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Chase Racing Clio
Yes, you've made it more clear now. We've used a similar method for adjusting camber; measure the ride height when the car's on the ground. Then with the wheel off, jack up the lower arm until the hub is in the same relative position. Ensuring all weight is held at each corner rather than at the sill or wherever you usually jack from.
182cup & 172 racecar
Phew, F1 here we come.
Getting the geometry is pointless without corner weighting the car, as the car will act differently from left to right, also when changing the weight through a chicane, Find yourself a decent set up which is a good compromise around all the circuits that you visit and keep to it,
Go and buy a cheap set of axle stands and a pair of steel 10mm wheel spacers, weld the spacer to the axle stand so you can bolt the spacer onto the disc face. Simples. you have the room to adjust all aspects of the geometry with out taking wheels on and off, then going up and down to check, the right weight will be loaded onto the suspension, you could go even further and weld a triangle made from 1/2 inch square tubing which sits low enough to run a tape measure underneath the car, then measure front and back to get your toe right,
you can attach your magnetic camber gauge to the wheel spacer to measure the correct camber with loads on,
Remeber how cheap these gauges are so use it as a comparison to the oposite side rather than an actual figure, as the next time you put it on it will be different. I find that calibrating it on a wall that you know it 100% vertical so I get the sme reading every time.
Go and buy a cheap set of axle stands and a pair of steel 10mm wheel spacers, weld the spacer to the axle stand so you can bolt the spacer onto the disc face. Simples. you have the room to adjust all aspects of the geometry with out taking wheels on and off, then going up and down to check, the right weight will be loaded onto the suspension, you could go even further and weld a triangle made from 1/2 inch square tubing which sits low enough to run a tape measure underneath the car, then measure front and back to get your toe right,
you can attach your magnetic camber gauge to the wheel spacer to measure the correct camber with loads on,
Remeber how cheap these gauges are so use it as a comparison to the oposite side rather than an actual figure, as the next time you put it on it will be different. I find that calibrating it on a wall that you know it 100% vertical so I get the sme reading every time.
182cup & 172 racecar
When I do mine at my mates garage, his floor isn't level. I just zero it to the floor, so when it's on the ramp it's the same.
Then re zero it for the other side, it's never far off.
Then re zero it for the other side, it's never far off.
I never used the long word you had to Google.....
I thought I was being too simplistic
Good idea with the axle stands - bit safer than blocks of wood.
Err..no!
Ditto, floor looks level to me and nothing rolls away!
Been looking at camber gauges;
Like this but too pricey; Longacre
Then there's this one; Precision Point
Finally, might try this one - not magnetic though - Pitking
Like this but too pricey; Longacre
Then there's this one; Precision Point
Finally, might try this one - not magnetic though - Pitking
182cup & 172 racecar
Magnetic would be better.
Ive got one like you posted earlier, with tbe triangle.
This can be leveled to the floor each side.
Ive got one like you posted earlier, with tbe triangle.
This can be leveled to the floor each side.
I was looking at that Pitking one
The front geometry set up cost an eye watering £30 yesterday, front camber at -ve 2.5 with 1mm toe out. No print out Hunter style so not appealing to everyone but good rate nethertheless. Onwards to Dan's at 519 (who waited as I was quite late due to weather and blocked A14 at Spittles) dropped the car off and then drove the 10 or so miles across to the Bedford Autodrome to have a chat with the CS crew attending a Ford day. It did look like there were more RS's there than Fords, typical windy airfield day but good to catch up and hear what's been happening.
Now hoping the wheels I sent (via the same courier) arrive in better condition than the suspension I sent on the same day.
182cup & 172 racecar
Lol, they drop that out of a helicopter without a chute?
Think it was one of those new delivery drones - more design work needed me thinks.
Result - got a £20 refund from the courier company for the damage and "loss of the fixing bolts" to the damaged parcel. Nick172Cup pm me your email address and I'll Paypal over half.
Got my race licence yesterday, the questions have changed slighlty and they now put your medical conditions on the reverse of the licence card, ( be interesting to read Tony's) mine just says needs glasses\contacts for driving.
I've read on the MSA licence application form that instead of a medical every year I only need to do one two years as it now says "previous medical is valid for 12 months and can be used to apply.......as long as application is processed before it's 12 month expiry" maybe its always been like this, just never read it. Tony Hunter
2nd paragraph applies...
Sam can do hers online (no medical) - as she's still a youth.
Got my race licence yesterday, the questions have changed slighlty and they now put your medical conditions on the reverse of the licence card, ( be interesting to read Tony's) mine just says needs glasses\contacts for driving.
I've read on the MSA licence application form that instead of a medical every year I only need to do one two years as it now says "previous medical is valid for 12 months and can be used to apply.......as long as application is processed before it's 12 month expiry" maybe its always been like this, just never read it. Tony Hunter
2nd paragraph applies...
Sam can do hers online (no medical) - as she's still a youth.
182cup & 172 racecar
Never read that bit Pete, I think I would rather have a medical anyway.
Race licence isn't big enough to list my ailments etc, so they don't bother.
Race licence isn't big enough to list my ailments etc, so they don't bother.
Picked the Cup up just now from 519's, all sorted and running nice. So happy that the crank sensor issues are now resolved. Sensor is in its default position, no messing around with that now either.
Fully warmed up the engine for 30 mins and tried out my new noise tester. Set to read max from a metre away read 99db's and sometimes 100db's.... means my quiet 98db days are over. Meter is a proper big type one not the small £10 eBay special so fairly accurate I should think. I'll have to give Rockingham a call as our TD booked for March 15th is a 98db day. Though have seen a Javelin OPL TD for £99 13th March so will swap to that if Rockingham say no.
Will spend this weekend finishing off the Cup... and that'll leave just tyres to get, 8 A048's.....should be cheap... not.
Fully warmed up the engine for 30 mins and tried out my new noise tester. Set to read max from a metre away read 99db's and sometimes 100db's.... means my quiet 98db days are over. Meter is a proper big type one not the small £10 eBay special so fairly accurate I should think. I'll have to give Rockingham a call as our TD booked for March 15th is a 98db day. Though have seen a Javelin OPL TD for £99 13th March so will swap to that if Rockingham say no.
Will spend this weekend finishing off the Cup... and that'll leave just tyres to get, 8 A048's.....should be cheap... not.
You not tempted to swap to dunlops Pete? Cheaper and better in my opinion 
You not tempted to swap to dunlops Pete? Cheaper and better in my opinion
Can you send link of where you buy, I'll definitely try as to me the A048's are now even getting expensive (friendly local supplier putting prices up a fair bit) still £20 or so cheaper each tyre than tweaks etc. Cheers James.
I buy mine (205/50 15) from http://www.mrtyremotorsport.co.uk and pay £105+vat a tyre then run the 195 R888’s as wets
What about a decibel killer for the exhaust?
Looked at those, but first I'll have to cut the stealth exit off and weld another 2.5" section on to bring exhaust tail pipe to the rear bumper. Not a major issue so do able.
Looking like it'll be the Javelin OPL 105db day, buy in Feb special for £99 on 13th March, and move our Rockingham day to the test day on the 4th April. Day before the first race of the season.
Hmmm, trying sort a new position for the Go pro - this is suspended from the ROP bar across the top of the wind screen. Seems a good position, though not sure about the rear view mirror. If i got a ROP mounted mirror then the camera could be more central. Not sure.
Camera in the same position but with mirror removed.
If it was central I think you'd see the gauges and rev counter. I'll go and try it out.
Camera in the same position but with mirror removed.
If it was central I think you'd see the gauges and rev counter. I'll go and try it out.
Here we have the camera in the center, still hung from the ROP bar above the wind screen.
This is with the camera mount move from the vertical to as far forward as it can go - close to the windscreen.
Think I'll leave it here and get another mirror for the ROP's bar - wondering how adjustable these mirrors are?
This is with the camera mount move from the vertical to as far forward as it can go - close to the windscreen.
Think I'll leave it here and get another mirror for the ROP's bar - wondering how adjustable these mirrors are?
