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172 Cup Track/Fast Road car.



Knuckles

ClioSport Admin
Two things:

1. Please learn to heal & toe
2. You still seem to be suffering from loads of understeer?

Sounds nice though!


people heel and toe in clios? :S i big toe and little toe ;)

or is it just me having silly big feet?

cars looking great though!

stiffen up the front, get some oversteer! i am fully aware i could have that the wrong way round so /flamesuit... just incase :p
 
The passenger mirror is mostly covered up - but it doesn't bother me as I use the rear view mostly

Dave - I know I KNOW - I need driving lessons. I just dont get the heal & toe at all
And the understeer - yup. Tyres squeel everywhere

Those were both early sessions - Later in the afternoon I changed my rear ARB to the stiffest setting and it really helped but the car still does understeer way too much

-2.5degrees of camber at the front
standard -1.5degrees on the rear
Whiteline rear ARB set to stiffest setting
10minutes of toe out on the front

I think it's purely now come down to the fact that the Uniroyal Rainsports are s**t on track. I went out in my mates AX on R888's and it grips about 10x better - so next year I'll be getting some road legal slicks
 
I've been told to get more grip at the front I need to stiffen up the rear - but as the billsteins aren't adjustable I can't do that
I'm really f**king pissed off that I bought the billies - I wish I'd gone for KW V2's or something instead
Maybe next year they'll get binned for something properly adjustable :D

I'll upload a video tonight of one of my later laps with the tyre pressures tweeked and the rear ARB setup - but any advice on what I'm doing wrong would be greatly appreciated - especially as next time I go out on track I should have 200bhp lol
 
  Mk1 MX-5 (x3), Westy
Geo and setup sounds fine - however the tread on Rainsports is so widely spaced they do seem to squirm around a lot in the dry. My mate went from TR-1s to those and noticed a massive difference - said the Uniroyals were awesome in the wet though. What sorta hot pressures are you running at, out of interest?

I don't think you'll *need* to stiffen/soften the suspension to get a balanced setup, the ARB should be able to do that (although there are only 2 settings on the Whiteline I think? Hmm...) along with tyre pressure tweaks, however the 888s (or similar) will help the car grip a lot better.

Will have a look at the next vid later and see if I can add anything :) Did Anglesey fairly recently so it's pretty fresh in my head.
 
My ARB has 3 settings - it made a hell of a difference going from middle to hardest

The rainsports are good in the wet but I find in the dry they overheat and go VERY soft (like you can sink your finger 1cm into the rubber lol)

I was running 24psi front and 22psi back - hot
Probably a bit low but it's the only way to get the damn tyres to grip :(

Other video is encoding now so should be up in an hour or so
 

Jamie86

ClioSport Club Member
  RS175,595,205gti,172
Tyre pressure are way to low for road tyres on track..

Great project btw!
 

NorthloopCup

ClioSport Moderator
Even the KW V2's give understeer out mate. I run them and even on the stiffest setting they're to soft for track. I'm getting mine revalved, shortened and then running shorter and stiffer rear springs.
Front dampers and springs are spot on though tbh with the V2's.
 
Jamie - how do you work that out?
The few calculators I'd seen online when I put the weight of the clio in said 24/22psi when hot
I tried them at 30/28 and the car just wouldn't corner - it understeered all the time
Softer settings really helped

Northloop - I'm considering looking to see if I can swap the bilstein springs for some a bit stiffer - would help a fair bit on track
 
  clio 182
nice little project mate!

just for your info, i run rainsports in the wet and set them to 24 front, 26 rear. but that is in the wet. Different set ups on different cars though, just keep playing with the pressures.
 
I upped them a bit to around 25psi when it started raining - but in the dry on a sticky track I found 24/22 worked well

I was also advised to do the front higher due to the engine weight? But that could be wrong
It's all a learning curve :D

Once the throttle bodies are mapped I'm gonna get a full day booked at blyton just so I can play with different geometry/tyre pressures etc.. :)
 

Fletcher

ClioSport Club Member
I think it's purely now come down to the fact that the Uniroyal Rainsports are s**t on track. I went out in my mates AX on R888's and it grips about 10x better - so next year I'll be getting some road legal slicks

A decent set of semi slicks will transform the handling/ car Phil.
 

Jamie86

ClioSport Club Member
  RS175,595,205gti,172
Just look at the tyres themselves and i'm willing to bet a packet of munchies :eek: that you can see where they have been "rolling" onto the sidewalls under hard cornering..

Proper track tyres have harder sidewalls to stop this road tyres don't shouldn't need a calculator to tell that just the steering wheel and a some eyes to look at the tyres :p
 
Yeah it has been rolling slightly onto the side wall - but that's not always a bad thing :p

This was taken under hard cornering to the right

315806_113556615421802_100003023921516_90387_19657322_n.jpg


Tyre looks nice and flat on the tarmac to me ;)
 

Jamie86

ClioSport Club Member
  RS175,595,205gti,172
How's rollingonto sidewall not bad? iirc not much tread on them :eek:

But hey ho ultimately it's your car and you should be able to feel how it reacts to pressures better than I via internet lol

Pic ***** ;)


Looks good :cool:



Edit: Can't be cornering that hard still all 4wheels grounded :evil: haha
 
  Saab 93 Aero Wagon
My god.....this is like looking at my car, just with a cage and less interior (which im set to cure soon). Nice work.
 

Sir_Dave

ClioSport Trader
My god.....this is like looking at my car.

Nope, its like looking at my (old) car. Still wish i'd bought it back when i had the chance :(

Dave - I know I KNOW - I need driving lessons. I just dont get the heal & toe at all
And the understeer - yup. Tyres squeel everywhere

You dont actually use your heel & toe, so thats probably where you are falling short ;) left side of foot for brake, right for accelerator. Easy peasy, just do some practice, will save your gearbox imploding for starters ...

I was running 24psi front and 22psi back - hot

Waaaaaaaay too low!! With road tyres (T1R's) i found the best psi was 32-33psi hot, stops the front tyres rolling onto the shoulders.

R888's i ran at 27-28psi hot. Obviously, you need to keep an eye on the pressures throughout the day as well.

A decent set of semi slicks will transform the handling/ car Phil.

Well yes, but also no. A decent set of slicks will simply mask a poor handling setup imho - although by the sounds of it, the cars settings are pretty much there, its the sh1tty tyres that are killing it.

FYI, whilst i have different dampers on the Trophy, those geo setting give a very throttle adjustable/tailhappy drive (as i like it), with no sign of understeer unless you simply drive like a plank.
 
Last edited:
  Mk1 MX-5 (x3), Westy
Had another watch of the vids... Here's my 2p (sorry if any of this is 'teaching your grandma to suck eggs' type stuff!):

Seems like a lot of the understeer is under steady state cornering or the exits? 'Slow in, fast out' works well here, if you go in understeering the temptation is to keep the power on and the steering lock applied, so you just understeer all the way through. If you get all your speed off before the corner, turn in later, apex later, your exit from the corner will be in a straighter line, so you can get more power down without understeer (and a higher speed at the end of the straight). Imagine there is a string from your steering wheel to throttle pedal - 100% throttle = 0% steering possible, 25% steering lock = 75% max throttle, 70% steering lock = 30% max throttle, etc. Your tyres can only do so much work!

Similarly, if you do start to get understeer, lift off a bit and straighten the wheel up, that should get the tyres gripping again - you may run a bit wide initially but it'll still be faster/smoother than understeering out and having to get off the throttle at the last minute.

You can also balance the car with the brakes (weight transfer) - throttle = shifts weight back, brake = shifts weight forward. More weight on a wheel = more grip. So if you get on the power too early in a corner, it shifts the weight back, less grip on your front tyres, understeer, you put more lock on as you're panicking about running wide, car ploughs straight on and you have to get off the power just at the point you should be applying throttle.

Trail braking can help... if you brake towards the Apex (but get your downshifts and most of your speed off in a straight line first) it will leave more weight on the front wheels, and therefore more grip, better turn in, meaning you hit your apexes better and can get on the power earlier, without understeer. Similar thing to the throttle though - more steering lock = less braking possible without locking up, so as you wind the lock on, reduce pressure on the brakes. Note: some people think this is 'dangerous' and 'not to be tried unless you are an expert' - personally I found it very intuitive, and easy to get the hang of, but approach with care as too much braking will have you swapping ends!

You can see the difference here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRFFM44SQTQ

Lap at 3:00mins, no trail braking. Laps from 6:15 with instruction, started trail braking. You can hear there is less understeer, and I ended up about 1s quicker on the lap :)

Oh, and keeping your hands on the wheel at all times should help too, so you constantly have full feeling what the front wheels are doing. Crossing your arms is better than 'feeding' the wheel for track stuff.

Some semi slick tyres will definitely help you carry more speed though, more grip and stiffer sidewalls:

17688.jpeg


PS: This is all my experience, if anyone disagrees then that's fine - more than open to some discussion!
 
Last edited:
  Saab 93 Aero Wagon
Oh of course! I completely forgot this is your old car Dave.....nice to see the old girl going strong.
 
Nick - they have worn completely evenly

When I ran 30psi hot they shredded the outside half of the tyres and the inside were like new

I'm running 205/50's if that makes any difference
 
Dave - I just do not see the point in heel+toe'ing
I can do it - spent a weekend playing around the local roundabouts and dual carriageways and I can sort of see the point from matching revs - but if I'm aggresively down-shifting i'll blip the throttle anyway. It doesn't stop understeer or make me any quicker from what I can tell

Adam thanks for the advice - The understeer is nearly always when the car is mid corner and trust me I'm not applying much power - on every corner on that video i've got maybe 5-10mm of throttle applied until the steering wheel is straightening out then I progressively apply power
It just doesn't grip around corners - it never has for some reason. I've tried hard pressures, low pressures etc...

It used to be awful - like as I turned in I used to have to have no gas on at all or the wheels spun - now I can apply a tiny amount and progressively apply power but they do still squeal

I'm not sure if maybe I need to raise the back end a bit more to get weight back over the front wheels
I'm reserving judgement now though until I get some decent tyres
 

Sir_Dave

ClioSport Trader
Dave - I just do not see the point in heel+toe'ing

I can do it - spent a weekend playing around the local roundabouts and dual carriageways and I can sort of see the point from matching revs - but if I'm aggresively down-shifting i'll blip the throttle anyway. It doesn't stop understeer or make me any quicker from what I can tell

Easiest way to describe the benefits (from my own experience) is thus:

In order to get a car around a corner as quickly as possible you need to quell understeer, one of the best ways of doing this is via (trail) braking into a corner - helping the subsequent transferral of weight to the front axle of the car. This increases the load over the front end of the car, pushing the tyres into the tarmac, generating additional grip.

At the same time, the rear end of the car goes lighter (slight oversteer), inducing something known as 'neutral handling' which subsequently allows you to remove the pressure from the brakes, use less actual steering input and drive through the corner via the throttle. This is the balance that i aim for with all my cars.

In order to brake at the last minute prior to/into a corner, you need to be braking & changing gear at the same time, the smoothest way to do this, without any weird (& unexpected) weight transfer is to rev match via heel & toe.

Trust me, there is a reason why its done, when combined with all the other techniques, it makes you considerably faster around a track.

(Note to all racing drivers, the above is my own words, its probably not 100% accurate, but i know what i mean)
 
Ahhhhhh THAT'S why I never see the benefit

I brake hard on the straight - come off the brakes then turn in with a very neutral amount of throttle on and after I pass the apex I start to gradually apply power and decrease steering - that was purely the way I was taught to drive

But if I do what you said then yeah fully I understand - because if you braked all the way into the corner then downshifted without matching the revs you'd likely kick the back end out.

So basically brake all the way into the corner keeping the front wheels loaded, then clutch and down shift while also pressing the gas to neutralise the change, then start to slowly apply power coming out

Makes sense - I wanna go give it a go now LOL

I did notice my mate Mark (in the AX) brakes a lot further into turning than me but assumed that was because he had R888's and I wasn't sure if I braked into the corner if the back end would step out

Once the bodies, 182 manifold, sports cat etc.. are all on and it's mapped I'm gonna put R1R's on it and book a few weekends at Blyton
Just spend the whole day trying to master the cornering and reduce the understeer
 
  Saab 93 Aero Wagon
I did notice also that you are lifting off very early and effectively "coasting" before you apply the brakes, changing down etc.

The amount of time between you coming off the throttle and applying the brake should be minimal.
Combined with heel toe you'd be substantially quicker around a lap....that and eliminating that understeer ;)
 
Right - this weekend I started stripping everything down ready for the Jenveys WOOT!
Yep - you read that right - I've finally given in to a childhood dream and bought a set of Jenveys and Omex 600 from a mate in Lincoln. I can't wait!


All went without a hitch :D
I also removed the exhaust manifold and cat and then picked up a 182 manifold from Jamie86 (cheers mate) yesterday. That's gonna be fun fitting (not!)


Bye bye exhaust manifold
Photo-29-10-2011-12-35-29.jpg



Sexy looking ports!!
Photo-29-10-2011-11-09-25.jpg



Ready for the bodies :D
Photo-29-10-2011-12-35-08.jpg



I pick the bodies up tonight and have to say I feel like a kid at christmas!! I even woke up an hour early lol
 
  340i
Why are you fitting a 182 manifold?

It's really not worth the messing around... you will gain a hardly noticeable increase in low down torque, but you will loose top end power!

Oh, and you have to drop the subframe to fit it aswell!


It also looks like you VVT sensor / actuator thingy seal is leaking (behind the oil filler)
 
Why are you fitting a 182 manifold?

It's really not worth the messing around... you will gain a hardly noticeable increase in low down torque, but you will loose top end power!

Oh, and you have to drop the subframe to fit it aswell!


It also looks like you VVT sensor / actuator thingy seal is leaking (behind the oil filler)

I'm not entirely sure if that's leaking or if I missed when topping up the oil last time and couldn't clean it up because the inlet manifold was sat on top
I'm gonna degrease it all and clean it up and keep an eye on it when it's back on the road. Not sure if theres a seal on it I can replace?

As for the 182 manifold - there's so much conflicting nonsense on here it's unreal. You say you lose top end power, but others say you gain it. You say hardly noticeable torque change but others who map for a living say it completely cures the nasty dip in the torque curve on 172's

All I'll say is it only cost me £50 + my 172 de-cat and it means I can very easily swap between a de-cat and a catalytic convertor next year for when I'm doing combe with it's lame 98db limit. After swapping the 172 cat I never want to do that again

Also my starter motor is knackered so had to take the manifold off to get to that anyway.
I'm not bothered if I lose or gain 2bhp either way - pub figures don't interest me. I just want the cat to be in a more practical place for easy swapping
 
  340i
There is a little O ring seal on the VVT actuator that you can replace, I've seen a few of those leak before.
 
Ahh sweet cheers

I need to order inlet manifold gasket, exhaust manifold gasket, exhaust to cat fitting kit, a 182 breather plate and gasket...
I'll add the o-ring onto my renault order. Bloody expensive parts from renault though :(
 
  340i
Ahh sweet cheers

I need to order inlet manifold gasket, exhaust manifold gasket, exhaust to cat fitting kit, a 182 breather plate and gasket...
I'll add the o-ring onto my renault order. Bloody expensive parts from renault though :(

depends who you know ;)
 
  BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Hi Phil,

Good job with the throttle bodies! Bet you cannot wait to get those fitted.

Regarding the picture of your inlet ports. Is that standard finish or have they been ported? Are the inlets on a 172 head CNC'd from the factory? Only reason I ask is that I want to take a look at our ports this week as according to a previous owner the head has been "port'n'polished". I will wait and see first though :)
 
Well ever since my early days of 106 ownership I have ALWAYS wanted the noise and the power delivery you only get from throttle bodies


And finally the wait is over...


Photo%2031-10-2011%2018%2018%2034.jpg



I don't think I've ever been this happy!! :D
 


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