BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[Nick172Cup]

Holy shight!

 

[Jonny1*2]

Is that all? Was expecting 5k ish

 

[Cr33do]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Don't think those front struts would flex much looking at the dia. of them :O

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

OUCH that sucks!
I must admit, and I don't mean to be horrible in any way with this, but when we were at Anglesey I had honestly expected your car to fly off and leave me for dead lol.
I'm sure it's got a LOT more potential if the reliablity issues can be sorted, I hope they are with this last round of replacement parts

Good luck mate, hope to see it dominating at Donington

Haha no mate it's okay I know it needs to be a lot quicker ! Yes I think it does but that won't be seen until next year I doubt as a lot of time will come from the changes over winter! Thanks mate

Eventful times mate. Why did you discount Billy's? Is TDF no longer running support for you?

Yes Jonny all going on at the moment lol! I tried not to discount any options but chose the AST's because they are a known quantity and that is unfortunately what I need at the moment. There is no point in me going out trying to do things differently and failing as I can't keep ploughing the money into it if it doesn't work out so it was just a matter of getting the best compromise

Yes mate that is correct they are not

Nothing is ever straight forward, it is pretty bizarre that the AST's are the only off the shelf option!

Jonny the only option for the mk2 is the B14s which I'd put in the same category as the KWs if not worse due to the lack of adjustable damping. They're good, but they're not race suspension. Anything that's remotely usable on the road is a compromise, FACT

No it isn't is it Mike I know it's really odd that they have the market to themselves for race suspension!

Very true mate

Glad you've gone down the AST route, you know they're proven so aside from the customer service aspect which will be sorted soon enough, they are a safe and quick bet! What ones did you go for?

Also regarding the full nut/bolt refresh, is it really worth it? Surely just spanner checking/torquing all the bolts would show the weak parts, on top of that isn't the things like bearings and moveable parts that's been the weak point?

Nick

Yes Nick thank you for the recommendation of Josh Definitely and from my point of view they are already miles better than my past experience with them Went for the AST Sportline 2's but going to run the PMS top mount and strut brace for now and then try and incorporate more castor over winter

Sorry mate I wasn't very clear I don't mean i'm going to replace each nut and bolt but just that the car will be stripped down, do the various bits of work and then put it all back together. To get the car how I want and expect it to be then this is the easiest option by far unfortunately A lot of the components will be replaced for fresh OEM one's such as driveshafts, bearings, joints, bushes and then will also be modifying various bits. Really just working on what I have learnt. The amount of money I have wasted on track days, testing and instructors when the car hasn't worked would have paid for all the winter rebuild so it makes sense to do it before having repeats next year!

Have to agree with Nick on the re-bolt James, seems a little ott.

Which AST setup we talking by the way? Sportline 2 I assume if you're not thinking three way

I know what you mean Jonny but when I write it all up over winter and you see the pic's of what i'm changing and why then I think you'll agree that it's the easiest way

Yes mate sport line 2's

I'll edit it for BIGASH as he missed a bit, if he doesn't like the AST's then he's having these bad boys

Haha sorry Fred I was keeping it hush as I thought it might be a top level secret :rasp: But seriously thanks for everything you are doing for me !

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Maybe some of this title could be amended. Not had a lot of luck really have you.

Glad you have got at least one thing sorted for now, and you can get it back on it's wheels.

[h=2]Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He[/h]

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Haha lol very true

Yes definitely! Sounds daft but I can't wait just to get back in the car! Shame I can't use Teeside over the summer holidays

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Did you ask for any spring rates, or just relying on them to send some, and then go from there.

And if you are using the PM top mounts, you will hardly be getting any castor at all.

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I didn't specify spring rates as i'd of just been guessing lol, I asked them to spec them to what they think are required and i'll go from there. If it's miles off then I will get Simon to work his magic, if it's okay then I will hold off doing the CF stuff until winter If the car had been back from TDF then I could of come and done the morning at Mallory

Yes I know I didn't see the point of buying the top mounts just to get me through the next month or two though. I have got a plan for winter but not faffing with it until then

 

[Jonny1*2]

Why not just go or the ast top mounts now as they will give you the castor options later down the line? Is the brace necessary btw, can't remember if Jay/Tony run one

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Yes we do, I think James is getting some welding done over winter, this could be the reason why he's not changing the top mounts atm.

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Why not just go or the ast top mounts now as they will give you the castor options later down the line? Is the brace necessary btw, can't remember if Jay/Tony run one

I'm not sure how necessary the brace is really but I was advised by TDF to fit it so I guess there must be some advantage to it I don't want to offend those with the AST top mounts but they appear to be very fragile and I have heard this from many people so I have steered clear, they also only run to about 4 degree's Castor and I have been advised to run more than this so they wouldn't be sufficient. Also I don't really want to spend another £200 where I can just make the mod's over winter and it will only cost me a few bits of steel and paint Just a shame that I can't run decent castor until then

 

[Jonny1*2]

Fare point Tony. James I don't mean the bogo ast mounts. They do some more substantial ones which require the struts adjusting. Chris looked at putting them on his Trophy before he sold it

 

[Nick172Cup]

Surely you can't go too mad James with the castor, with our 172 Cup they have more castor than the other Clio range because of the lower arms plus I think with once our top mounts are fitted to max castor we'll be nearly touching the front of the side parts of the bumper.

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I have been told that there is a clio race car in France that's running nearly 8 degree's castor without any mod's to the arches but I also had the same worries as you Nick. I think with the different lower control arm on yours and the top mounts set to max castor you'll have at least 6 degree's which is great

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Good to see your getting things sorted out, AST's are proven so suspension reliability should be no issue.

Your plans for winter, would you like to elaborate? Are you having custom top mounts made for winter or are tdf supplying you some of there touring car mounts Iv seen before and adjusting strut tops to suit, also what deg castor has been advised out of interest?

Edit, above post explains castor.

Pure braces are definitely worth there money, there the only strut brace I have seen that actually tie te strut tops together other than cup racer brace.

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Nick 172


Are you sure the cup road cars have different lower arms? I have compared road cup arms and cup racer arms and there seems to be no difference other than Bushes? I am going to get them surveyed at a mates work as cup arms will be a better base to start from for modifying.

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Fare point Tony. James I don't mean the bogo ast mounts. They do some more substantial ones which require the struts adjusting. Chris looked at putting them on his Trophy before he sold it

Sorry Jonny I only saw the 'Fare point Tony' bit. I didn't realise they did any other types so thanks for that I will look into it and see if they would be simple to run The plan is to totally change the strut top so that wouldn't be an issue Thanks mate

Good to see your getting things sorted out, AST's are proven so suspension reliability should be no issue.

Your plans for winter, would you like to elaborate? Are you having custom top mounts made for winter or are tdf supplying you some of there touring car mounts Iv seen before and adjusting strut tops to suit, also what deg castor has been advised out of interest?

Edit, above post explains castor.

Pure braces are definitely worth there money, there the only strut brace I have seen that actually tie te strut tops together other than cup racer brace.

Thanks mate yes it seemed the most logical solution! Yes no worries I will draw my idea tomorrow and post it up as i'm getting shouted at by the other half for not been in bed so got to dash lol! It will retain the PMS mounts and brace I have been advised to create a way of running 9 degree's but probably run between 7 and 8 depending on what we find when testing. Yes I do agree about the strut brace I just wonder as to how much they do when the car has cage pick up points to the turrets?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

If you could fit in the driving seat of my cup you could experience a lot of castor mate, but somehow I think you may struggle!! Lol! I'm running Ast top mounts set to full castor and the front edge of the tyres is close to the bumper. Very nice to drive though.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Nick 172


Are you sure the cup road cars have different lower arms? I have compared road cup arms and cup racer arms and there seems to be no difference other than Bushes? I am going to get them surveyed at a mates work as cup arms will be a better base to start from for modifying.

I think he means the fact that cup road car arms are different to non cup road car arms, to sit the balljoint further forward and add caster.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Surely you can't go too mad James with the castor, with our 172 Cup they have more castor than the other Clio range because of the lower arms plus I think with once our top mounts are fitted to max castor we'll be nearly touching the front of the side parts of the bumper.

Changing caster on the top mounts wont effect the clearance to the bumper surely? as you are adding castor by pulling the top back not by pusing the front forward in that instance, so if anything it would give you more clearance as the bottom balljoint is sat below the centre line of the wheel so the wheel will move back very slightly not forward?

Ive been looking at modifying a set of arms to push the caster forward a little further than normal cup, and also increase the track a little at the same time for my turbo.

 

[shiftspark]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Surely you can't go too mad James with the castor, with our 172 Cup they have more castor than the other Clio range because of the lower arms plus I think with once our top mounts are fitted to max castor we'll be nearly touching the front of the side parts of the bumper.

I thought that the 182 cups have the longest wheel base and larger castor angle but all the lower arms come from the same part number ?

 

[Silent_Scone]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

If you don't get those cup racer billys you're mental.


In the same breathe you're mental anyway lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

The most we can get out of our AST top mounts is 4degs, and this is not enough, 6-7 degs would be much better,

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Tony, you are on the 172 cup wishbones I take it?

It would be fairly easy to move the balljoint even further forward than these set them with a modified set of arms IMHO

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

We use 182 cup arms

 

[shiftspark]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Are they different than 172/182 arms Jay?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

We use 182 cup arms

Are you on 182 hubs as well then?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

We use 182 cup arms

Thought they might be, but wasn't sure.

 

[msa197]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

The most we can get out of our AST top mounts is 4degs, and this is not enough, 6-7 degs would be much better,

Grinder coming out for next season then! Lol

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Thought they might be, but wasn't sure.

I have yet to see different arms on the 1*2's, IMO all the Renault claimed wider track & more castor is done in the hubs & wheel offset. I might be wrong but there are only 2 types, lower model arms with a different ARB arrangment and the generic 1*2 arms?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Without putting them all together, you'd never be able to tell anyway.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I have yet to see different arms on the 1*2's, IMO all the Renault claimed wider track & more castor is done in the hubs & wheel offset. I might be wrong but there are only 2 types, lower model arms with a different ARB arrangment and the generic 1*2 arms?

172 cup wishbones are definitely different but it's only caster they introduce. They just have the hole drilled differently for the balljoint to mount to.
I used to think the hubs were different to give extra track width but I was wrong, they are the same as phase1 and phase2

The thing that confuses people is the extra width at the front versus the back on the cup models but it appears the real difference is at the rear which is narrower on the cup then the offset of the wheels pushes the rear out a bit past standard at the rear and the front out a lot wider.

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I have compared 182 arms and phase 1 arms against my 172 cup arms and there the same but wether they were all original Renault parts fitted to all these cars is the question. Usually just a sticker that disappears quickly so hard to define.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Without putting them all together, you'd never be able to tell anyway.

Thays what me and mike did last week. Hubs are same, arms are same width but have more castor.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Interesting.

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Thays what me and mike did last week. Hubs are same, arms are same width but have more castor.

So your saying the arms are all the same bar the cup which has offset holes for ball joint?

I was unaware they changed the rear track other than different offset wheel, in your thinking they must have made different stub axle's if that's the case as I would be very doubtfully if they changed the back axle for each model.

And your saying hubs only differ in the shocker pick up point?

 

[IcemanUK]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

A reasonably good explanation of castor camber and toe

http://www.simpsonmotorsport.co.uk/uploads/files/SuspensionSetup.pdf

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

So your saying the arms are all the same bar the cup which has offset holes for ball joint?

Yes, although im only talking in the context of the 172 and 172 cup, I didnt have 182 cup to compare to as well.

I was unaware they changed the rear track other than different offset wheel, in your thinking they must have made different stub axle's if that's the case as I would be very doubtfully if they changed the back axle for each model.

Cup is 20mm wider at the front, but only about 10mm wider at the rear.
The wheels (on all 4 corners) are 10mm further out on the cup, so for the rear to only be about 10mm wider despite having 20mm more width in the wheels, I conclude the rear must be narrower, but I have not yet had a chance to measure that.
The stub axles definately vary though, the 182 ones for example are WAY more spaced out.

The other interesting thing that I have found, is that the phase 2 shaft appears to be a straight swap for a cup driveshaft as well despite so much talk on here to the contrary, but obviously the phase 2 has the equal length setup on it.
I am genuinely out of ideas of why the cup (the sportier one) would have a LOWER spec driveshaft than the normal phase 2, no idea at all what was going through renaults mind at that point!

I believe that the cup packed 182 have a wider hub, and thats why they are different on the front, but I havent checked that yet as Ive not had my hands on the 182 cup parts.

And your saying hubs only differ in the shocker pick up point?

Im not sure if the pickup on the hub is different or on the shock TBH, didnt look for that.

 

[BIGASH]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

If you could fit in the driving seat of my cup you could experience a lot of castor mate, but somehow I think you may struggle!! Lol! I'm running Ast top mounts set to full castor and the front edge of the tyres is close to the bumper. Very nice to drive though.

Thanks Mark very kind offer But yes I dont think i'd fit lol! See what you think to the difference if you do end up swapping to the PMS kit!

If you don't get those cup racer billys you're mental.


In the same breathe you're mental anyway lol

Haha they certainly are a very nice bit of kit but make me start regretting my decision lol! It took long enough for me to make my mind up without having doubts now

Haha I don't know if that is a good or a bad thing Mike??

I was unaware they changed the rear track other than different offset wheel, in your thinking they must have made different stub axle's if that's the case as I would be very doubtfully if they changed the back axle for each model.

The various mk2 RS variants have got different stub axles as I found out when I went to replace mine. Makes a good 10-15mm difference to track width at the rear!


This maybe a totally silly question but is it not possible just to make a custom ball joint that would give more castor and also lower the control arm (longer joint) this will improve both the roll centre issue and castor? I can't imagine it would be difficult to machine up but i'm not sure about the actual joint part?

PS is it Castor or Caster?

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

So your saying the arms are all the same bar the cup which has offset holes for ball joint?

I was unaware they changed the rear track other than different offset wheel, in your thinking they must have made different stub axle's if that's the case as I would be very doubtfully if they changed the back axle for each model.

And your saying hubs only differ in the shocker pick up point?

I just read back what I wrote. It sounds like I'm trying to say the checks you did were wrong, that's not the case I'm just interested to know what you found?