BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[Chip-mk1]

Chip, what do you use for the diameter of the wheel/tyre? Just (wheel dia + 2x profile) with profile being taken from the width and profile of the tyre size e.g. for 205/50 15 = 58.6 cm.

Just wondering if you account for tyre deformation or true profile rather than tyre size.

Thanks

I took a datalog from a car running the tyres so that I had a reference point to work from.

It will still vary by a couple of RPM though based on amount of tread left and pressure run, so dont take it as an EXACT set of numbers, but it should be withing a couple of mph.

For 195/50/15 it will of course be a slightly less in all cases.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mark I use pagid blues on my PH1 and never had an issue with them stopping me hot or cold that's why I just bought another set.

I used pagid's on the turbo, they are really good.
DS2500 are another good option, we use those on the mk1 and on the RS2 car.

All on standard 172 calipers and HC disks

 

[Space Cadet]

Mark I use pagid blues on my PH1 and never had an issue with them stopping me hot or cold that's why I just bought another set.

Thanks, are you running them in Alcons with larger discs or standard callipers and discs?

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Standard discs (HC discs though) and calipers.

 

[BIGASH]

Here you go mate:

Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
11	34	0.324		0.071	36.4	38.8
22	41	0.537	1.659	0.118	60.3	64.3
28	37	0.757	1.410	0.167	85.0	90.7
34	35	0.971	1.284	0.214	109.2	116.4
37	33	1.121	1.154	0.247	126.0	134.4
39	31	1.258	1.295	0.277	141.4	150.8
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
59	13	4.538

Change ratio for the "6th" gear in that list is relative to the 4th gear not the 5th though.

So you can see that with the 39/31 the revs will drop TWICE as much (1.295 vs 1.54) as with the 37/33 when you change into fifth, I cant imagine why you would want to do that unless you think there is a significant chance you will ever be at over 134mph for more than a few seconds.



For anyone who doesnt realise, the "change ratio" is the amount the revs will drop when you change up.

So if you are at 7500 and the change ratio is 1.5 then in the next gear you will be at 5000rpm (well technically very slightly under 5K in that example as the car decelerates slightly during the change)


If the change ratios are low then its called a "close ratio" gearbox.

In an ideal world for racing an N/A car you would have a change ratio of around 1.15-1.20 normally to really keep things on the boil, sadly none of the standard jc5 clio boxes do have

Thanks for that Chip! Massive difference then, I was just thinking aloud but changing the 5th does seem the best option Now I just need to decide on ramp angle lol!

Hi James, quick Alcon question - we spoke previously about you running a softer pad in the wet, well I’m thinking of whether I should run a softer pad regardless as I just don’t think I’m getting the Pagid Blues hot enough. I only really ever get to drive the Brands Indy circuit which apart from the longish straight is quite a tight twisty track therefore probably I’m not getting them hot enough. My other thought would be to block the fog-lamp air-vents off which would reduce the cooling to the callipers and hopefully help keep them hot. What have you done regarding cooling/retaining heat and pad choices? Thanks Mark

Hi Mark, I always struggled with the brakes until I got rid off the ABS and since that has gone I have fit the pad size alcon told me to I haven’t had an issue. Matt recommended that I ran DS2500’s for the wet and then the PF97’s for the dry. I tried a set of yellowstuffs in the wet and it was much improved but then in the dry they don’t last long at all.

I have got the whole foglight cut out on mine now and don’t suffer any issues with either over cooling or overheating. I now run PF01’s all the time and that is on the bigger pad size. If I were you I would check pad size you have fitted as I found it made quite a difference. While the smaller pad is cheaper it is pretty puny and my current setup is transformed from how it was originally. I have used them now in the wet and damp and had no issues what so ever. What are you planning on doing for calliper maintenance? I could do with sending mine off for a refurb over winter to change the seals but unsure where to send them.

Hope this helps and let me know if I can be of any more help

Best Wishes
James

 

[Tony Hunter]

We block off air ducts if wet.

Go faster, brake harder, that'll get them hot.

Oh and if it's really wet, Cup racers run crappy old pads in the wet.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks for that Chip! Massive difference then, I was just thinking aloud but changing the 5th does seem the best option Now I just need to decide on ramp angle lol!

Yeah big difference, it means that realistically if you left the standard cog in, you would have nearly 15% less torque at the wheels the moment you have to change into 5th gear, and thats a big price to pay for a relatively useless tradeoff like a higher top speed that you wont have room to get to.

I would think going with the standard 40/65 ramp angles is a safe bet, but ask the lads in this thread what they are using if they claim its gaining them 2 seconds or so a lap over the quaiffe as whatever they have obviously works very well

 

[Space Cadet]

Thanks James. I didn't realise there are different pad sizes available for the Alcons, just assumed they would accept the one size listed as B-Type. Without sounding dumb how would I know which size pad I had (obviously I'll take them out)?? For the moment I think I want to keep the ABS. I've just taken a look on the PF site and I'm none the wiser as to the differences, are the 01's softer than the 97's?? I was really impressed with the CL RC5+ and RC6's I ran in the standard callipers but whether or not they'd feel the same in the Alcons? Not thought about maintenance yet as have only done one day and a few road miles since fitting them. Thanks Tony, think I'll give blocking the ducts off in the wet and cold.

 

[Tony Hunter]

I would think going with the standard 40/65 ramp angles is a safe bet, but ask the lads in this thread what they are using if they claim its gaining them 2 seconds or so a lap over the quaiffe as whatever they have obviously works very well

And seems to break things on the odd occasion.

 

[Chip-mk1]

And seems to break things on the odd occasion.

Quickest and most reliable are rarely the same in life, lol

Are you prepared to publish your ramp angles or are you on a quaiffe tony, I lose track of who has what TBH!

 

[Tony Hunter]

Quickest and most reliable are rarely the same in life, lol

Are you prepared to publish your ramp angles or are you on a quaiffe tony, I lose track of who has what TBH!

I have a ramp in the workshop, and quiff in my hair when I was younger.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Flol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Quaiffe Chippy.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Quaiffe Chippy.

Fit and forget option, that would be my choice too mate as per what James used to have, but we're obviously in the minority in this thread with all this talk of it costing 2 seconds a lap versus a gripper, lol

 

[BIGASH]

Yeah big difference, it means that realistically if you left the standard cog in, you would have nearly 15% less torque at the wheels the moment you have to change into 5th gear, and thats a big price to pay for a relatively useless tradeoff like a higher top speed that you wont have room to get to.

I would think going with the standard 40/65 ramp angles is a safe bet, but ask the lads in this thread what they are using if they claim its gaining them 2 seconds or so a lap over the quaiffe as whatever they have obviously works very well

Perfect well that should make a good difference then As you say I doubt I will be going above 130 anyway and if so and want to change my mind then I guess I can swap back to a standard 5th gear!

I will drop them both a message and see what they are using. Thanks again

Thanks James. I didn't realise there are different pad sizes available for the Alcons, just assumed they would accept the one size listed as B-Type. Without sounding dumb how would I know which size pad I had (obviously I'll take them out)?? For the moment I think I want to keep the ABS. I've just taken a look on the PF site and I'm none the wiser as to the differences, are the 01's softer than the 97's?? I was really impressed with the CL RC5+ and RC6's I ran in the standard callipers but whether or not they'd feel the same in the Alcons? Not thought about maintenance yet as have only done one day and a few road miles since fitting them. Thanks Tony, think I'll give blocking the ducts off in the wet and cold.

Yes they do two different pad sizes that physically fit. Best way is to draw around the back plate take the measurements. Your more than welcome to send the trace to me and I will let you know or even send me a photo of the pad and I should be able to tell from that as the shape is different too.

Fair enough Mark, I didn't want to remove it from mine either but it is much better now that I have. If we end up on the same track day next year your more than welcome to try mine and see what it's like without ABS.

In all honesty I couldn't tell you as I couldn't find out either. They seem to market the 01's as an endurance pad. I have found pad wear to be higher on the 01's though which would suggest they are softer but I put this down to a lot more confidence under braking and braking harder/later.

 

[BIGASH]

I have a ramp in the workshop, and quiff in my hair when I was younger.

Hahaa lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Fit and forget option, that would be my choice too mate as per what James used to have, but we're obviously in the minority in this thread with all this talk of it costing 2 seconds a lap versus a gripper, lol

If he starts beating me by 2sec a lap, I'll punt him off.

 

[Adam G]

"The Redgate Manouvre" iirc

 

[BIGASH]

If he starts beating me by 2sec a lap, I'll punt him off.

Haha you’d have to catch me first :race:

"The Redgate Manouvre" iirc

Haha lol! Every corner at Donington has a special manoeuvre after that race!

 

[Chip-mk1]

At 2 seconds a lap he won't need to catch you, he can wait for you to catch him. Lol.

 

[BIGASH]

Haha lol! Never going to happen

 

[Fred@BTM]

Some say you won't be needing a diff next year.....................because spare driver

 

[BIGASH]

The Twig by any chance?

 

[Fred@BTM]

The Twig doesn't need 2 sec's per lap

 

[BIGASH]

I’ve heard

 

[Cup_Phil]

This is going to be epic lol

 

[BIGASH]

 

[Chip-mk1]

You got a 2nd driver than ash? Or is it some in joke I don't get?

 

[BIGASH]

You got a 2nd driver than ash? Or is it some in joke I don't get?

Don’t know lol! I need one though otherwise I can’t see i’ll be racing this year

 

[Fred@BTM]

Nickers says yes http://nickyelloly.com/
Shaggy says yes www.lordsam.com
Twig says yes ***

(ps britcar!)

 

[BIGASH]

Lol at “sam’s” website! He’s obviously swapped the porker for a nice rover ! I think Zoltan should have a go too, would be a right laugh

(ps yesss...)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Don’t know lol! I need one though otherwise I can’t see i’ll be racing this year

I keep thinking I'm tempted then remember I'm not really. Lol. Lot of money for not a lot of seat time really sadly.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Zoltan would stab people in the paddock if they came within 1 car length on circuit, "You idiot f**k, i kill cat and stab face with cheese burger"

 

[BIGASH]

I keep thinking I'm tempted then remember I'm not really. Lol. Lot of money for not a lot of seat time really sadly.

Haha, it’s certainly not a cheap hobby but its a lot of fun!

Zoltan would stab people in the paddock if they came within 1 car length on circuit, "You idiot f**k, i kill cat and stab face with cheese burger"

Lol I don’t think he’d last long with the CSCC then :rasp:

 

[Fred@BTM]

he would eat everyone in the CSCC then make tools from body parts "i fix boss, you pay"

 

[BIGASH]

Haha you make him sound crazy he's a pussycat really

 

[Tony Hunter]

Haha you make him sound crazy he's a pussycat really

Not on a Monday morning he's not. (after Freds been in on Sat)

 

[BIGASH]

Now that I can imagine

 

[Space Cadet]

Yes they do two different pad sizes that physically fit. Best way is to draw around the back plate take the measurements. Your more than welcome to send the trace to me and I will let you know or even send me a photo of the pad and I should be able to tell from that as the shape is different too. Fair enough Mark, I didn't want to remove it from mine either but it is much better now that I have. If we end up on the same track day next year your more than welcome to try mine and see what it's like without ABS. In all honesty I couldn't tell you as I couldn't find out either. They seem to market the 01's as an endurance pad. I have found pad wear to be higher on the 01's though which would suggest they are softer but I put this down to a lot more confidence under braking and braking harder/later.

Thanks James, I've just spoken with a very helpful guy called Matt at Alcon, I just need to get the part number off the back of the calliper and he will be able to tell me exactly which B-Type calliper I have and which pad sizes are available. Apparently swapping the pad retaining bolt around can allow larger/smaller pads!? I'll also pop a pad out and draw around the back plate to see which pad size I already have (it might actually be that I have the largest already!!).I get the impression that the 07's are a softer pad, I'll give PF a call to find out once and for all.....Thanks for the offer! - would be great to feel the difference of not having ABS. Would be good to catch up some time anyway so let me know when you're at Brands next and I'll pop down if I can.Thanks for the offer, would be great to feel the difference of not having ABS.

 

[BIGASH]

My callipers are off the car if you want me to get the number for you? I did have it written down somewhere but couldn’t find it yesterday when I looked. I spoke to Alcon a while ago and they said they didn’t produce different pins as I did ask them directly. I didn’t need to change the pin for the pads i’m using now though.

Will be interesting to see what PF say if you could let me know please

Yes definitely Mark, Unsure I will be testing at Brands this year due to funds but if I do then I will let you know and you can come and have a drive. We are racing there in May and as you say would be good to catch up!