BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

BIGASH · Nov 24, 2012

2nd engine now sourced this will be the long term spare but will go in the car in January for the wiring to be done and then will get mapped

I am going to carry on my journey of self teaching and try and fit my 421’s and also a set of ARP’s, I also need to put on a different sump as I will be running a welded in boss on the sump next year for oil temp. Hopefully armed with the Renault manual I can do it! If not then I’m sure Fred will save the day as always

Hopefully should be with me next week so I can get that sorted while the shell is away for welding and painting!

BIGASH · Nov 25, 2012

Also does anyone know if I can use the 182 breather plate on a ph1 engine so that I can still use my current coil pack mount?

chrispy.clio · Nov 25, 2012

I dont think it fits!

I cant remember which coilpack bracket you have but i much prefer the brackets which hang on to the side of the engine so its away from the Manifold!

Dan519 · Nov 25, 2012

BIGASH said:
Also does anyone know if I can use the 182 breather plate on a ph1 engine so that I can still use my current coil pack mount?

no, completely different. lots of the holes are in the same place though so you might get lucky with the mount lining up

NorthloopCup · Nov 25, 2012

BIGASH said:
Also does anyone know if I can use the 182 breather plate on a ph1 engine so that I can still use my current coil pack mount?

I'll offer my 172/182 breather plate up and see how many holes line up as per dan's reply and let you know mate.

BIGASH · Nov 25, 2012

Ahhh well thats my plan out of the question then lol! Thanks Mark

Chris where sell those coil pack mounts? May have to swap

Chip-mk1 · Nov 25, 2012

I think danpl6 had a 182 rs2 coilpack mount on his 172 iirc.

not hard to adapt, it's only a case of drilling a couple of holes and making up a couple of spacers at most I would imagine. You could mock up out of washers then get someone to turn you one.

Dan519 · Nov 25, 2012

BIGASH said:
Ahhh well thats my plan out of the question then lol! Thanks Mark

Chris where sell those coil pack mounts? May have to swap

mount it on the end of the head like I've done. Pretty simple. could knock one up I guess. It's nothing hugely technical, just a flat plate with a bend, a cut out, and a few holes drilled

Tony Hunter · Nov 25, 2012

Or a Ford one, that fits.

Fred@BTM · Nov 25, 2012

stop it!

BIGASH · Nov 25, 2012

Chip-mk1 said:
I think danpl6 had a 182 rs2 coilpack mount on his 172 iirc.

not hard to adapt, it's only a case of drilling a couple of holes and making up a couple of spacers at most I would imagine. You could mock up out of washers then get someone to turn you one.

The problem for mine is the coil pack can’t fit under the strut brace if it has the 172 breather setup

Dan@519Automotive said:
mount it on the end of the head like I've done. Pretty simple. could knock one up I guess. It's nothing hugely technical, just a flat plate with a bend, a cut out, and a few holes drilled

Thanks will give that a try

Tony Hunter said:
Or a Ford one, that fits.

Wouldn’t I need the ford coil pack mate?

chrispy.clio · Nov 25, 2012

I think fred hates mounting them on the side of the engine so you might not be allowed Ash

I actaully bought one from K-tec. About 20 quid i think! Was about 2 years ago now!

BIGASH · Nov 25, 2012

Haha I’ll let Fred sort it out then

I just need to work it out for the wiring!

If I mount it on the side i’ll just make one I think

Fred@BTM · Nov 25, 2012

chrispy.clio said:
I think fred hates mounting them on the side of the engine so you might not be allowed Ash

I actaully bought one from K-tec. About 20 quid i think! Was about 2 years ago now!

no LOL, i was the first to do it (well the second, i copied it from the BTCC clio)

Nafoff · Nov 26, 2012

Fred said:
no LOL, i was the first to do it (well the second, i copied it from the BTCC clio)

i wonder where i have seen that....hmmmmmm

we need to talk though sir, will be in-touch at some point

Fred@BTM · Nov 27, 2012

i've been waiting for your call.............for months

Chip-mk1 · Nov 27, 2012

ph-reebone said:
i wonder where i have seen that....hmmmmmm

we need to talk though sir, will be in-touch at some point

Was that picture taken at autosport international on the future publishing stand?

Jamie86 · Nov 27, 2012

I would guess so as he worked for them..

Chip-mk1 · Nov 27, 2012

Jamie86 said:
I would guess so as he worked for them..

Though I recognised it, I was working on that stand that year as well, for Total Vauxhall and Fast Ford, small world! lol

Jamie86 · Nov 27, 2012

I did my work experience at Future, small world!

Sorry OT!

Nafoff · Nov 27, 2012

Fred said:
i've been waiting for your call.............for months

phones work both ways.... sure i have tried calling, meh, will do shortly

Chip-mk1 said:
Was that picture taken at autosport international on the future publishing stand?

yes it was, when the car looked half decent, use to work for Fast Car

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

James, going back to our discussion the other night on the phone, I knocked up a quick spreadsheet for you, and if you get a JC5-106 fifth gear into your car, then based on 205/50/15 tyres you should see the following:

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.080	40.6	43.3
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.132	67.3	71.8
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.186	94.9	101.2
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.239	121.8	129.9
5th	37	33	1.121	1.154	0.276	140.6	150.0
	Crown	Pinion
diff	61	15	4.067

Have listed speed at 7500rpm as the point you would typically change up, and speed at 8Krpm as a max achievable in gear.

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

PS

The 5th gear apparently can be bought new for about 60 quid or so, so not worth finding old boxes to pull it out of.

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

Wow thanks for doing that Chip really appreciate it

All looks good and then I guess I just knock 12% off those top speeds for the new FD? If I do that again all look okay except i’m going to be banging off the rev limiter all the way around Craners in 4th.

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

Yes mate exactly that. I couldn't remember what fd you were going for so used ph2 as a starting point.

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

Perfect, yeah think i’m going with 4.54 which is 12% higher

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

Yeah that seems the best option or you will need fifth too often if you go any bigger.

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

Yeah

Looking forward to trying it out

2Damnsly Andy · Nov 28, 2012

I lost what was going on in this thread with the thingy on the side of the engine two pages back.

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

2Damnsly said:
I lost what was going on in this thread with the thingy on the side of the engine two pages back.

Haha don’t worry Andy, Not much is going on really! Hopefully by Christmas there will be a lot more progress, just waiting for the boring jobs to be done like painting and welding and can then put it all back together over Xmas hopefully

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

BIGASH said:
Yeah Looking forward to trying it out

Think that for my mk1 on its temporary Williams engine I'm going to just go for standard phase2 final drive as otherwise with the lower fifth and the lower geared diff like you are going for it will be too Revvy on long drives like to and from Bedford which is an 8 hour round trip for me.
In some ways trackdays cars are harder to spec right than race cars as they still need some road manners too. Lol.

For the turbo I will go for the taller phase1 final drive as it suits the torquey engine well, but can't decide whether to go for the lower fifth gear or not.
Performance wise it would be better on track with it and I will need fifth gear on track occasionally even on the taller diff, but I can't help thinking the lower top speed might annoy me on the road (German roads I mean of course

)

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

Yes I guess it would be and also if you swap it into the 172 after the Mk1 then it wouldn’t be ideal as a daily either. Haha yes thats the advantage of a trailer and just towing although the journeys are a lot slower

Sounds like a plan I’d just leave the 5th gear and save some money, and then you can still have good top speed (Just in Germany though

)

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

Figured I may as well post the numbers for the various gripper options as well, as I know James views this thread is about being a useful resource to other starting out racers not just a thread about James's progress.

That way its all here at a glance:

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.075	38.5	41.1
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.125	63.9	68.1
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.177	90.1	96.1
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.227	115.6	123.3
5th	37	33	1.121	1.154	0.262	133.4	142.3
	Crown	Pinion
diff	60	14	4.286

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.071	36.4	38.8
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.118	60.3	64.3
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.167	85.0	90.7
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.214	109.2	116.4
5th	37	33	1.121	1.154	0.247	126.0	134.4
	Crown	Pinion
diff	59	13	4.538

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.062	31.4	33.5
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.102	52.1	55.6
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.144	73.5	78.4
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.185	94.4	100.7
5th	37	33	1.121	1.154	0.214	108.9	116.2
	Crown	Pinion
diff	63	12	5.250

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

Oh and here are the two phase 1 options I am weighing up for my turbo:

This is standard phase 1

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.084	42.7	45.5
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.139	70.8	75.5
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.196	99.8	106.5
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.251	128.1	136.7
5th	39	31	1.258	1.295	0.325	165.9	177.0
	Crown	Pinion
diff	58	15	3.867

This is phase 1 with the lower fifth

	Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
1st	11	34	0.324		0.084	42.7	45.5
2nd	22	41	0.537	1.659	0.139	70.8	75.5
3rd	28	37	0.757	1.410	0.196	99.8	106.5
4th	34	35	0.971	1.284	0.251	128.1	136.7
5th	37	33	1.121	1.154	0.290	147.9	157.7
	Crown	Pinion
diff	58	15	3.867

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

BIGASH said:
Yes I guess it would be and also if you swap it into the 172 after the Mk1 then it wouldn’t be ideal as a daily either.

Yes I was thinking when the mk1 is on the honda engine I could just swap the standard fifth gear back in and then put the box in the RS2 car for Lesley

I know she wont want the lower fifth as it will impact fuel economy and she cares about stuff like that a lot.

Haha yes thats the advantage of a trailer and just towing although the journeys are a lot slower

Yeah, although not *much* slower the way you tow, lol

Sounds like a plan I’d just leave the 5th gear and save some money, and then you can still have good top speed (Just in Germany though )

Yeah exactly, I mean its not like im the sort of irresponsible person who would go putting his foot down on a UK road winding M3 drivers up etc by flying past their limiter...

lol

BIGASH · Nov 28, 2012

Chip-mk1 said:
Figured I may as well post the numbers for the various gripper options as well, as I know James views this thread is about being a useful resource to other starting out racers not just a thread about James's progress.

Teeth in Teeth out Gear Ratio Change ratio Overall Gearing MPH @ 7500 MPH @ 8000
1st 11 34 0.324 0.071 36.4 38.8
2nd 22 41 0.537 1.659 0.118 60.3 64.3
3rd 28 37 0.757 1.410 0.167 85.0 90.7
4th 34 35 0.971 1.284 0.214 109.2 116.4
5th 37 33 1.121 1.154 0.247 126.0 134.4
Crown Pinion
diff 59 13 4.538

Thanks for that Chip really handy

Do you mind telling me what my top speed would be on the above if I kept the 39/31 5th gear?

Chip-mk1 said:
Yes I was thinking when the mk1 is on the honda engine I could just swap the standard fifth gear back in and then put the box in the RS2 car for Lesley
I know she wont want the lower fifth as it will impact fuel economy and she cares about stuff like that a lot.

Yeah, although not *much* slower the way you tow, lol

Yeah exactly, I mean its not like im the sort of irresponsible person who would go putting his foot down on a UK road winding M3 drivers up etc by flying past their limiter...

lol

Ah yes I suppose that would be easy enough to change! I think for that car then yes I would swap it to the 37/33

Lol i’m not that bad

Exactly :rasp:

Chip-mk1 · Nov 28, 2012

Here you go mate:

Teeth in	Teeth out	Gear Ratio	Change ratio	Overall Gearing	MPH @ 7500	MPH @ 8000
11	34	0.324		0.071	36.4	38.8
22	41	0.537	1.659	0.118	60.3	64.3
28	37	0.757	1.410	0.167	85.0	90.7
34	35	0.971	1.284	0.214	109.2	116.4
37	33	1.121	1.154	0.247	126.0	134.4
39	31	1.258	1.295	0.277	141.4	150.8
Crown	Pinion	Diff ratio
59	13	4.538

Change ratio for the "6th" gear in that list is relative to the 4th gear not the 5th though.

So you can see that with the 39/31 the revs will drop TWICE as much (1.295 vs 1.54) as with the 37/33 when you change into fifth, I cant imagine why you would want to do that unless you think there is a significant chance you will ever be at over 134mph for more than a few seconds.

For anyone who doesnt realise, the "change ratio" is the amount the revs will drop when you change up.

So if you are at 7500 and the change ratio is 1.5 then in the next gear you will be at 5000rpm (well technically very slightly under 5K in that example as the car decelerates slightly during the change)

If the change ratios are low then its called a "close ratio" gearbox.

In an ideal world for racing an N/A car you would have a change ratio of around 1.15-1.20 normally to really keep things on the boil, sadly none of the standard jc5 clio boxes do have

mark123 · Nov 28, 2012

Chip, what do you use for the diameter of the wheel/tyre? Just (wheel dia + 2x profile) with profile being taken from the width and profile of the tyre size e.g. for 205/50 15 = 58.6 cm.

Just wondering if you account for tyre deformation or true profile rather than tyre size.

Thanks

Space Cadet · Nov 28, 2012

Hi James, quick Alcon question - we spoke previously about you running a softer pad in the wet, well I’m thinking of whether I should run a softer pad regardless as I just don’t think I’m getting the Pagid Blues hot enough. I only really ever get to drive the Brands Indy circuit which apart from the longish straight is quite a tight twisty track therefore probably I’m not getting them hot enough. My other thought would be to block the fog-lamp air-vents off which would reduce the cooling to the callipers and hopefully help keep them hot. What have you done regarding cooling/retaining heat and pad choices? Thanks Mark

2Damnsly Andy · Nov 28, 2012

Space Cadet said:
Hi James, quick Alcon question - we spoke previously about you running a softer pad in the wet, well I’m thinking of whether I should run a softer pad regardless as I just don’t think I’m getting the Pagid Blues hot enough. I only really ever get to drive the Brands Indy circuit which apart from the longish straight is quite a tight twisty track therefore probably I’m not getting them hot enough. My other thought would be to block the fog-lamp air-vents off which would reduce the cooling to the callipers and hopefully help keep them hot. What have you done regarding cooling/retaining heat and pad choices? Thanks Mark

Mark I use pagid blues on my PH1 and never had an issue with them stopping me hot or cold that's why I just bought another set.

BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

Similar threads