EPAS on 172 Cup

[Cup_Phil]

Argghh want to start ordering bits today but I'm still not 100% convinced that twingo rack will fit - the rod that connects to the steering column looks different.
Dunno whether to just bite the bullet and order one, get a couple of the cheap £13 firstline inner tie rods and then trial fit it using my existing track rod ends and bushes etc...

Then if it fits I can buy proper renault tie rods and new rod ends and do it permanently


Does anyone know if you have to remove the bottom part of the dash to swap the steering column for an EPAS one or if I can get away with just the top half?
Bottom part of dash means roll cage out again

 

[Chip-mk1]

You lot need to stop playing around with these cars and get them out there. There will be no fuel left in the world to drive them at this rate.

Not sure specifically the OP in this case but that is SO true about 90% of the folk on this forum who spend their whole time building track cars and hardly using the damn things!

 

[mikekean]

hehe yeah I remember from fitting the 182 manifold how much of a PITA it was

I think you can lower the rear section a few inches without fully removing the subframe which should help me get all the pipes removed

Thanks for the part number - I can't make my mind up whether to fit some cheap pattern inner tie rods considering how much of an ass they are to replace or whether to just bite the bullet and get renault ones from wests...
Considering like you said the whole conversion is gonna cost me less than £300 and that's a bit of a bargain for a complete steering overhaul

Oh I forgot about rack bushes - I assume they are a renault part only too?

By the looks of it you wont be needing rack bushes as the twingo rack in the picture bolts straight to the subframe. Which is actually quite a nice feature, should eliminate any play in that area.

 

[Cup_Phil]

oohhhhhhhh that 2nd picture swede posted isn't a 172 rack - that's why I'm getting confused

The 172 rack uses 2 D brackets doesn't it with rubber bushes in
Hrmmm gets more confusing because that seems to bolt on in 4 places and the twingo rack only bolts on in 2

Looking at the DCI/1.2 racks though they also bolt on in just 2 places without the bushes

That's the one Laxy fitted to his...

f**k it think I'm just gonna buy it and trial fit it with my track rods - then if it all works and I have manual steering, I'll take the track rods off and fit new ones - then fit the EPAS column

 

[Cup_Phil]

Not sure specifically the OP in this case but that is SO true about 90% of the folk on this forum who spend their whole time building track cars and hardly using the damn things!

Thing is though - not everyone who builds a car does it just to drive it. A LOT of people build cars because they like working on them and improving them.
For me I enjoy stripping a car down and rebuilding it better than the manufacturer did just as much as I do hooning it around track.
I can't think of anything more enjoyable than spending a sunny summer weekend dropping the subframe off and rebuilding all the steering system. I can't wait!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thing is though - not everyone who builds a car does it just to drive it. A LOT of people build cars because they like working on them and improving them.
For me I enjoy stripping a car down and rebuilding it better than the manufacturer did just as much as I do hooning it around track.
I can't think of anything more enjoyable than spending a sunny summer weekend dropping the subframe off and rebuilding all the steering system. I can't wait!

I enjoy working on my cars too mate, especially to improve them, but without keep getting it out on track you dont know if you have really improved it or not. Has to be a balance of both things.
So many people Ive met in the car scene over the years who have spent all their time and money for several years on a car, then when they first use it at the end they dont like it and break it and lose a fortune, lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

LOL yeah I know mate

I spent all last winter building mine up - then went out on track at Donington and the steering was s**t and it understeered everywhere. I very nearly just broke it all for parts but no.. too stubborn

New steering, better tyres, etc.. and i'm lucky enough to have Blyton circuit just 30mins from me - and the guy who runs it lets me do an afternoon there for £50 so I can do plenty of sunday afternoon testing during summer

When I've got the new column/rack/etc.. fitted gonna get it all corner weighted and the camber set up properly then see what it's like

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool stuff mate, hope it all goes well

 

[Cup_Phil]

Made them an offer and got the Twingo rack for £40 posted

I'll drop my rack off - take the arms off and fit them to the twingo rack loosely - then re-assemble. If all goes well I'll end up with a Manual cup for a while lol

 

[Toastfrenzy]

This is all very interesting....Phil can you list the parts you're buying (bought) as lost track with all the upside down pics etc...cheers

 

[mikekean]

Im wondering if Quaife and the likes might actually be able to do a decent quick rack kit for the twingo casing? seemed unsuccesful on the DCi casing.

 

[Cup_Phil]

This is all very interesting....Phil can you list the parts you're buying (bought) as lost track with all the upside down pics etc...cheers

RS Twingo Rack (on Freds recommendation so I hope it fits LOL) - £40 (ebay)
Clio DCi/1.2 EPAS column with ECU - £75 (ebay)
Clio EPAS controller - £45 (ebay)
Shorter timing belt - £??? need to measure when the PAS pump is in the bin

Then just needs wiring

I'm also buying new Inner & Outer tie rods but that's purely because mine have visible play in them.

The rack's on its way to me today and I'm going to trial fit it with my existing tie rods just to make sure the rack fits and the column bolts to it.
I'll update in here and on my progress blog

 

[Chip-mk1]

Sounds like a nice and relatively simple conversion if it works.

 

[MG cup]

oohhhhhhhh that 2nd picture swede posted isn't a 172 rack - that's why I'm getting confused

This is all very interesting....Phil can you list the parts you're buying (bought) as lost track with all the upside down pics etc...cheers

Theres no upside down pics, one is a Twingo RS rack from the front and one from the back, I was trying to show that the pinion looks a hell of a lot longer on the Twingo rack compared to the Clio RS rack I.e not possible to fit.

Fred says it works though so fair enough.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I think the pinions looks about right - it's hard to tell because of the rubber gator that is on/missing in some pics
I'd assume the pinion could be chopped down anyway if needs be as long as it's the right shape/size for the rack to bolt too

I figured it was worth £40 to find out anyway - if it doesn't fit I'll post it to Fred and he can use it as an ornament in the workshop

 

[MG cup]

The distance from the centre line of both racks to the tip of the pinions look a good bit off to me, not to mention the diameter of the piece of the pinion that attaches to the steering column UJ look different and are machined square at one piece to allow the type of connection that is used on 1*2's.

If it does work you will have to remove your steering column on the car and then fit it after the Twingo rack is bolted to the car due to different design's.

You have got one for pennies now though so it's worth a try.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yeah sitting and looking at it - the pinion does look a fair bit longer on the twingo rack

I've been trying to get hold of Fred to see how certain he was it was the right part but he's really busy as usual and I don't really wanna keep interrupting him.
I guess if it doesn't fit I'll just have to sell it on and get a DCi rack instead

 

[Cup_Phil]

It doesn't look as long on this shot

Good news is though they've put it on a next day fedex shipment for me - so it'll be here tomorrow.

I'll take lots of back-to-back shots with the cup rack and measurements etc... this weekend when I trial fit it

 

[Chip-mk1]

Could be a very useful thread this if it does work

I'd love to go EPAS on my ph1 turbo at some point, so will be keeping an eye if you are doing all the hard work first

 

[Cup_Phil]

LOL cheers guys - I'll take one for the team lol

 

[NorthloopCup]

I've just kept my original rack when I converted to epas. It's just a case of removing the pipework and blanking them off. This is what James has done as well (BIGASH). With reference to the belt, you need a 5pk 847 to bypass the ps pump on the cup alternator setup. A big thanks to James for that info regarding the belt as well!

It makes for a nice little conversion really. Just a case of fine tuning the adjuster knob now for how much or how little effort I feel is required. The feedback through the steering is very nice as well, and its most definitely an improvement over the hydraulic setup.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ahh sweet I knew James had fitted it - didn't know you had and tested it
Sounds promising

Thanks for the part number - i'll order a belt now too

I quite like the idea of the twingo rack as it's done 100k less than mine lol
Did you have to remove the whole dash to fit the epas column?

 

[Cup_Phil]

5PK847 - is 202660655 on eurocarparts for a contitech belt

Just in case anyone else is making a collection of part numbers
£14 with next day delivery


My alternator belt is shagged too so that's one more thing off the list lol

 

[NorthloopCup]

Ahh sweet I knew James had fitted it - didn't know you had and tested it
Sounds promising

Thanks for the part number - i'll order a belt now too

I quite like the idea of the twingo rack as it's done 100k less than mine lol
Did you have to remove the whole dash to fit the epas column?

I've end tested it for about 20 minutes - with no tax on the car! Lol!

To fit the column with the lower half of the dash in place is, in short, a complete b*****d. I removed the motor and fitted the column, then refitted the motor. Not a nice job as there's next to f**k all room. Took about 3hrs from start to finish to fit and wire up.

I only went epas to free up space for an eaton supercharger really, but I'm committed to another direction now. Won't be swapping back though now!

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ahhh so not easy.

Trouble is to get the bottom half of my dash out you have to remove the front half of the OMP cage and that's a PIG - easily a 3+hr job to remove and refit. So might be worth doing it the same way

I take it there's no complications removing the motor and refitting - just a pain as there's not much room?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah just a pain because there's not much room mate. Easily do able though with a bit of forethought.

 

[Cup_Phil]

That's brilliant news cheers mate

I really didn't want to have to take the cage and bottom dash out - that would mean removing all my dials and everything

The car isn't taxed at the moment and I've got the passat for daily driving - so I'll get the garage all heated up and take my time with it

 

[Cup_Phil]

Well I ordered it yesterday and it's already here!!

Brilliant service

It looks fairly positive so far. Only had 10 minutes to strip the upper heat shielding off and hold the rack above the existing one but I THINK the mounting points line up (will have to lose the metal blocks holding the current one to the subframe, and the pinion looks compatible

I'm gonna try and drop the subframe this weekend and whip the old rack off and PAS pump and all the plumbing. Fingers crossed this then bolts straight on

 

[_WILL_]

Please could you do a guide with pics and part numbers etc. I know this thread is kinda doing this already but if you could then put it into the guide section with pics and issues / tips that would be fantastic.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I will take pics of everything I do over the weekend and pics of this rack against the cup rack
If it all fits and works I'll format it all into a DIY guide and send it to the site admin

 

[Cup_Phil]

The only slight concern I've got is the big foam bit around the pinion - I'm guessing on the twingo that pushes up to the bulkhead. But on the clio it's going to be fairly exposed and right next to the manifold..

But if Fred say's it fits... :|

Oh and it's 4 full turns lock to lock. Not sure how that compares to the Cup rack - never sat and counted the turns lol

 

[James28]

Very interesting read!
Look forward to your (hopefully) progress this weekend!

 

[mikekean]

Cup is around 3 turns lock to lock so 4 turns sounds a lot.

 

[Cup_Phil]

It did seem a lot.
Where's Freds big giant brain when you need it

 

[mark123]

My 182 with cup packs is just less than 3 turns lock to lock.

Couple of 1*2 rack pics for reference.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Sorry must have mis-counted in the cold hehe

Just ran back out to the garage and I can get 3 full turns with no inner tie rods on

RS Twingo Gordini manual confirms - 2.83 turns lock-to-lock

Also looking at Clio DCi racks I think this really is gonna bolt straight on - they look identical
The mk3 clio racks look identical too

 

[mark123]

FLOLGood news though.I've just been measuring the geometry of the racks relative to each other from the pics and they are much closer than the impression the pictures give. So fingers crossed for you

 

[T.Trophy]

It looks like the universal joint will sit in the cabin with the twingo rack rather than in the engine bay like on the Clio. The column is telescopic so you can shorten it to accomodate the UJ inside.

I haven't fully fitted mine yet I just bolted it to the subframe to see if it lined up ok and it looked fine, but I had to remove it to get the subframe shot blasted

Mine is 2.5 turns lock to lock but that has the tie rods on it

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ahhh brilliant! That makes sense if the foam actually pushes up against the bulkhead and then the connection is made in the cabin.

Have you converted to a twingo rack too then?

 

[Adamio]

I'll have to keep an eye on this thread, i've removed the PAS and fitted a DCi rack in my 172 but i haven't driven it yet.

I was going to see how i got on with it and then possibly look into fitting an electric column later on.