EPAS on 172 Cup

[Cup_Phil]

I got an MOT advisory on the track car for slight play on inner tie rod. Kinda expected as they have done 118k

I could get them both replaced at BTM same time as I get cambelt done (end of summer) but I had a thought

Looking through BIGASH's build thread I really want to swap my PAS rack for a manual rack and EPAS column.
I've seen the Clio diesel EPAS column is a bolt on part and you can connect the EPAS ecu to a kit from ebay to allow you to vary the assistance - which is all cool.
But the rack itself - I know the Cup has longer inner tie rods - so would I have to buy a base model manual rack (or a diesel one) and then fit new cup tie rods?

Kinda thinking about buying a rack, fitting new rods, then swapping it onto the car with new rack bushes etc... to give the car a steering overhaul

 

[MG cup]

The tie rods can be fitted to lower model racks iirc, my preferred route would be and I know it will be frowned upon is to fill the Cup rack with fluid and make a bridge pipe for it. Beefier rack and supposed to have less turns lock to lock.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Hrmm that was my other thought - I'm sure I've seen a few people before just put a pipe between the inlet and outlet on the PAS rack so it runs without PAS

I didn't realise the Cup rack was less turns to turn though - I thought the diesel rack was slightly quicker

 

[Cup_Phil]

Just had a look and you're right - the non-PAS racks are more turn to turn lock - so that would be s**t

Sounds like my best option will be to drop the subframe off - whip the rack off, fit new tie rods and new bushes, fill with fluid and fit a loop pipe. Then an EPAS rack from a DCi - job should be a good un

 

[Bobby.]

The tie rods can be fitted to lower model racks iirc, my preferred route would be and I know it will be frowned upon is to fill the Cup rack with fluid and make a bridge pipe for it. Beefier rack and supposed to have less turns lock to lock.

My mates done this an crispy has aswell. Very good feel through the wheel when on track and up to speed but seriously heavy when trying to do manuvers. People often choose to use the 1.2/dci manual rack to help make the steering a little lighter.

 

[MG cup]

I have done it to although I haven't driven it yet, make sure its filled with fluid as the difference with and without was crazy just pushing it around my lock up, I used a syringe while slowly moving the rack from one side to the other and then made and fitted the pipe to bridge the piston. I filled the pinion with grease as well and blanked just to be safe.

 

[Bobby.]

Ah I see, we'll maybe my mate didn't do it like that, I know he put grease in the rack before sealing it but not sure how thorough he done it, maybe his is alot harder than yours.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Bobby - I assume your mate just put the loop pipe in and didn't fit an electric PAS rack...

That would be very heavy lol

 

[Bobby.]

Yeah that's all he's done, it is proper heavy on the steering lol. He let me have a go around brands a few months ago and the feed back through the wheel was brilliant, very confident inspiring but too heavy when manuvering for my liking. Difference is his is a full stripped out track car toy and mine a daily, that's why he puts up with it because he only really drives it on track.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Aye - That's why I want the EPAS - you can adjust the amount of assistance it gives so I can dial it down for track and back up when using it on the road

 

[Bobby.]

Got a link to this eBay kit?

Also have you considered using a saxo power steering set up like the burpspeed boys?

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yeah but it still means having fluid pipes around the place. I quite like the idea of undoing 1 bolt and being able to drop the subframe off the car with the rack still attached

 

[Fred@BTM]

twingo RS rack, clio 2 column, ebay bits - done

 

[Cup_Phil]

Is that a quicker rack Fred?

 

[Fred@BTM]

same ratio as trophy, just non hydraulic and much stronger

 

[Bobby.]

Do trophy use different racks to normal 182's then?

Do they need a electric feed or are just a basic manuel rack?

 

[Cup_Phil]

same ratio as trophy, just non hydraulic and much stronger

Thanks mate - £65 for an RS Twingo rack, £45 for the wiring and about £50 for an EPAS 1.2/dci rack with ecu

£160 for a full setup!! Bargain really

Oh plus whatever cup inner tie rods are and some new bushes..

 

[Fred@BTM]

you need 1.2/dci column not rack

 

[Korky]

Anyone got a link to the wiring? do you need a steering column ecu so to speak?

 

[MG cup]

Controller

http://bit.ly/WiIc2

Column should come with ecu and motor attached, give the motor power and wire in this and that's all you need.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Sorry yes 1.2/dci rack - typo

 

[Fred@BTM]

column!!!

 

[mark123]

I'd be inclined to try the twingo rack and no epas. Can't be any different to my old 205 gti or xr4i that were fine without pas.

 

[MG cup]

Edit : I can't see the twingo rack working without a lot of work.

 

[Tony Hunter]

You lot need to stop playing around with these cars and get them out there. There will be no fuel left in the world to drive them at this rate.

 

[MG cup]

True but nice to simplify the system, I wasted a day of my life on sunday that I won't get back on removing a subframe due to Renaults stupid design.

 

[Cup_Phil]

column!!!

f**k me - 12 straight hours of coding yesterday, I couldn't even put a post together LOL

Edit : I can't see the twingo rack working without a lot of work.

I'm pretty sure it's just upside down

You lot need to stop playing around with these cars and get them out there. There will be no fuel left in the world to drive them at this rate.

Hahaha I'm not tinkering just for the sake of it - there's quite a bit of play through my steering
Seems more work to fit another PAS rack and bleed it all etc - considering what an arse it is to get the rack and PAS hoses onto the subframe etc... than it would be to just chuck a couple of hundred quid at it and a weekends work and convert to EPAS.

 

[MG cup]

No... One is from the back and one from the front, its not upside down.

 

[Fred@BTM]

It fits, i'll get Steveto post part numbers

 

[T.Trophy]

I'd be inclined to try the twingo rack and no epas. Can't be any different to my old 205 gti or xr4i that were fine without pas.

I'm the same mate, I'm of the age where I've driven cars without PAS and can't remember it being that bad. I think the reason guys complain about overly heavy steering is because their using the hydraulic racks and filling them with grease. We'll see how it goes, I do have a EPAS column to go in but I'm not sure whether to bother :/

 

[Cup_Phil]

Fred could you confirm this is the right rack?
It's from an RS Twingo Gordini

If so I'm gonna get it bought and start the conversion this month

 

[Cup_Phil]

Been pricing these bits up since I got my advisory on the MOT for play in the steering

Twingo rack - £50
DCi/1.2 clio column - £45 approx.
EPAS wiring box - £45

But then the Cup Inner Tie Rods appear to be about £50 per side! then 2 track rod ends which again are £45 per side from Renault, and 2 new bottom ball joints

Looks like being a £300 job to refresh the steering system... eeek

Also once I've lost the PAS pump and all the plumbing - what do I do about the alternator belt? Do I just buy a smaller one and use the alternator bracket to tension it?

 

[Luke.]

You can get Lemforder track rod ends from ECP cheap at the moment, they have a deal on..

Either genuine Inner arms or they do a cross reference from a motor factor from a Kangoo.. Could make things a bit cheaper..

 

[MG cup]

Been pricing these bits up since I got my advisory on the MOT for play in the steering

Twingo rack - £50
DCi/1.2 clio column - £45 approx.
EPAS wiring box - £45

But then the Cup Inner Tie Rods appear to be about £50 per side! then 2 track rod ends which again are £45 per side from Renault, and 2 new bottom ball joints

Looks like being a £300 job to refresh the steering system... eeek

Also once I've lost the PAS pump and all the plumbing - what do I do about the alternator belt? Do I just buy a smaller one and use the alternator bracket to tension it?

Optomistic numbers for all that work but if you can then £300 is cheap considering the complete overhaul your getting.

The belt re-routes to avoid pas pump. Piece of string around pulleys when the alternators on minimum adjustment will give you your length.

 

[Fred@BTM]

who buys TRE's from Renault? You on crack if you do!

 

[Cup_Phil]

No I wouldn't buy the TRE's from renault - but I believe you have to buy the inner tie rods genuine as they're longer on the cup?

Do you know if that rack part number is ok Fred? I wanna get it bought before someone else does - RS Twingo rack's seem rare lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

Optomistic numbers for all that work but if you can then £300 is cheap considering the complete overhaul your getting.

The belt re-routes to avoid pas pump. Piece of string around pulleys when the alternators on minimum adjustment will give you your length.

Looks like the column will be £75 as I need the ECU too - but yeah priced it all up tonight and it comes to £290 in parts, then just my own time at weekends on top

Do you have to drop the subframe to take the rack off?

 

[MG cup]

No I wouldn't buy the TRE's from renault - but I believe you have to buy the inner tie rods genuine as they're longer on the cup?

Do you know if that rack part number is ok Fred? I wanna get it bought before someone else does - RS Twingo rack's seem rare lol

Got this tie rod in front of me, perfect copy part for the 172 cup. Not the best make being Firstline but okay for iirc £13 from micksgarage.com

You don't need to drop the subframe but I would highly suggest it having spent too many hours last week on my back removing all the pas hoses, far too busy around that area with the heat shields etc.

 

[Cup_Phil]

hehe yeah I remember from fitting the 182 manifold how much of a PITA it was

I think you can lower the rear section a few inches without fully removing the subframe which should help me get all the pipes removed

Thanks for the part number - I can't make my mind up whether to fit some cheap pattern inner tie rods considering how much of an ass they are to replace or whether to just bite the bullet and get renault ones from wests...
Considering like you said the whole conversion is gonna cost me less than £300 and that's a bit of a bargain for a complete steering overhaul

Oh I forgot about rack bushes - I assume they are a renault part only too?

 

[MG cup]

Yeah rack bushes are dealer only. I checked mine on my 106,000 mile Cup and there was no signs of wear or anything, best to check tbh.