Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]

[david hodson]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

This is the type of clamp i mean

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Tools-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item439b59bd2c

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

nicely done
There is something immensely satisfying about assembling hubs.
I can't see any copperslip on those threads, do you use it?

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

This is the type of clamp i mean

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Tools-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item439b59bd2c

that's what I use, the knife edge grips one of the grooves in the bearing, then you can rest it in the press and push the hub out.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cool - thanks for the link, looks like it could be far easier!

Which threads do you mean, the actual stud/nut thread? I put some on the inside of the new nuts before screwing them upto the wheel so the whole thread would not be covered in it...

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Which threads do you mean, the actual stud/nut thread? I put some on the inside of the new nuts before screwing them upto the wheel so the whole thread would not be covered in it...

yep, those. should be fine at that, you're obviously just a lot neater with it than I am

 

[coxy777]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Another awesome mod, can't believe it took you so long to do it!

Having only had cars with studs it's such a ball ache trying to fit wheels to cars without!

 

[Mark One]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The stud conversion is really awesome work. Definitely one of your best additions.

 

[fuel_slut]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Good work, however I would be concerned about the material you removed on the stub axel as you want as much strength as possible there for safety, especially as yours is a track day car and experiences high load. If you ever use slicks you will put even more load on them during cornering. The thing I don't like about it is that you don't know where the safety margin lies with regards to how much material you can remove.

If I am right, you have now removed material from:

- The uprights to fit the 172 suspension struts
- Material on the the axel stub
- Holes for the studs.

Surely you have weakened the whole setup now?

Not having a go but what was wrong with a £40 stud kit off ebay and glueing/bonding the studs in? would have been a lot less hassle?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Good work, however I would be concerned about the material you removed on the stub axel as you want as much strength as possible there for safety, especially as yours is a track day car and experiences high load. If you ever use slicks you will put even more load on them during cornering. The thing I don't like about it is that you don't know where the safety margin lies with regards to how much material you can remove.

If I am right, you have now removed material from:

- The uprights to fit the 172 suspension struts
- Material on the the axel stub
- Holes for the studs.

Surely you have weakened the whole setup now?

Not having a go but what was wrong with a £40 stud kit off ebay and glueing/bonding the studs in? would have been a lot less hassle?

The shock mounting faces on the uprights were overhanging by around 1mm before they were machined to fit the Williams shocks. By that I mean the shock mounting faces were wider than the stucture going upto it... We take 2mm off each side, as the Williams shock is 4mm narrower than the 172 item. That meant the shock mounting faces are now 1mm narrower than the structure leading upto it. When you compare a 172 upright to a Williams/Valver upright, it is generally lot bigger/fatter in its construction, to which I assume is for the extra weight of a 172 (200kg+ over mine), and/or because of the larger driveshaft/bearing setup. The 172 upright is probably still a lot stronger than a Williams/Valver upright even its machined (2mm each side) state, due to it having more material everywhere else. Ive had no worries about it because of this, and its been on the car since October 2008, covered 15+ trackdays and never had a problem...

When you compare a Williams stub to a 172 stub, it is narrower in the first place. I have taken the 172 stub down to aid with clearance, and because I dont see any problem with it considering the Williams/Valver/Mk1 item is thinner in the first place. The only reason a Williams/Valver/Mk1 stub was not pressed in is because the spline for the driveshaft is smaller, useless for me as im running 172 shafts.

The holes were drilled out to 1/2", basically just removing the thread. 1/2" is 12.7mm, what exact hole size does an M12 thread usually have? Must have only removed 0.2/3mm from each side of the hole if that when they were drilled out...

I could have got an eBay kit, or one from elsewhere etc, but ive heard about the studs winding out after a few trackdays time and time again on quite a few different forums. It always seemed to happen when people had done a trackday and come to change back to their road wheels, they would undo the nuts and the stud would come out with it - something I didnt want to be happening after the f*cked threads Ive had before! Im sure Andrew will reply and comment on the 'screw in' kit he recieved for his 5 before he did the press stud conversion if he reads this, the studs were pretty much monkey metal!

Going from that im quite confident that it is still just as strong, if not stronger than a Williams/Valver hub. Fair enough if any serious heat had been involved like we mentioned a few pages back (Welding or whatever), the metals properties may have changed/weakend etc, but its had nothing like that near it. The stubs were taken down on slow cut, and the uprights machined on a mill - nothing anywhere near the level of heat welding would generate. I went ahead with the idea as Andrew has ran it on his 5 racer, with the same press studs, same width machined stubs (his were Laguna hubs) and full slicks - Im sure if he'd had any problems he wouldnt have recommended the idea to me

 

[Whiteley]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The holes were drilled out to 1/2", basically just removing the thread. 1/2" is 12.7mm, what exact hole size does an M12 thread usually have?

~10.7mm ideally for a M12x1.5 thread.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah found that earlier, but what I meant was the actual hollows/deepest part of the actual thread

 

[Paddy_g46]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Any pics of the you mated loom dude?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Not mine but Adam's -

You can see the brown and white (Mk1) connector blocks at the bottom of the image. Basically all you are doing is removing the 172 engine loom connector (Thats what the main table in my guide is) and connecting the wires upto the Mk1 connector blocks, so it all matches with the car..

 

[wilky19]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

patrick its honestly not that had to do, just work threw the guide at your own pace and all will go well.

 

[Paddy_g46]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

ah ok, that makes so much more sense to me now!! so you are literally just cutting off the 172 connector and adding the mk1 connector so it can plug to the rest of the car! I dotn know what i was so confused about before!

Why are some of your wires open ends with no plugs?

 

[wilky19]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

ah ok, that makes so much more sense to me now!! so you are literally just cutting off the 172 connector and adding the mk1 connector so it can plug to the rest of the car! I dotn know what i was so confused about before!

Why are some of your wires open ends with no plugs?

yeah basically

they look to be wires to do with the 172 dash that adam was putting in his car, i left mine in also in-case i want to add a 172 dash later

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

ah ok, that makes so much more sense to me now!! so you are literally just cutting off the 172 connector and adding the mk1 connector so it can plug to the rest of the car! I dotn know what i was so confused about before!

Why are some of your wires open ends with no plugs?

Adam hadnt connected them up yet, was a work in progress picture

As wilky said really, just work through it and its not too hard, literally just swapping connector blocks!

 

[Rob]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cracking work with the stud conversion, the level of devotion really does impress me.

You can throw 0000's at a clio and make it epic, but I don't think there is any substitute for just having a go yourself.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cracking work with the stud conversion, the level of devotion really does impress me.

You can throw 0000's at a clio and make it epic, but I don't think there is any substitute for just having a go yourself.

Exactly something I didnt not want to do... Id rather spend time making my own 'one off' parts, making stuff fit where other people said it wouldnt and sourcing my own components/parts rather than through retailers (hence the high build cost of some projects) - One of the first things I went into 'blind' was the 172 running gear. No one had really tried it or documented it, so I just went along with it and got the stuff to fit, then wrote a guide - loads of people running it now and are a lot happier with their cars because of it!

All the other bits too - solid subframe bush, '5th' front mounts, converted hubs, the cage etc - nothing has to cost silly money if you are prepared to put the time and effort into it yourself. With the amount ive bought and sold in parts since the project started the car owes me pretty much nothing when compared to the value of the parts on it. I could break the car, sell everything and still make a profit back on what it owes me!


Anyway, next trackday is the RTOC Mallory Park Day on the 14th August 2010. After last years slight hiccup...



Im going to take my spare gearbox (once ive rebuilt it) and all the tools/engine crane required to swap it in the evening on the campsite incase it happens again Hopefully will avoid having to call the RAC if I do unfortunately have any issues, as they will probably point blank refuse to recover me again - and im quite confident its the only thing that can really go wrong again unless I have an engine failure. Everything else I have a spare of - Hubs/Brakes/Sensors/Coilpack/etc

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

plenty of gearboxes, clutches, pistons, liners etc been swapped in the campsite at RTOC meets over the last few years

 

[Whiteley]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I'll man the BBQ and sit and watch ...



Oh wait... it'll probably be mine that needs fixing

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

My tool/crane/spares rental rates should do me well that weekend then, wonder if it will be you or Adam? lol

 

[Whiteley]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Rental, behave! I'll get my brother to nip along with anything I forgot then

 

[fuel_slut]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The shock mounting faces on the uprights were overhanging by around 1mm before they were machined to fit the Williams shocks. By that I mean the shock mounting faces were wider than the stucture going upto it... We take 2mm off each side, as the Williams shock is 4mm narrower than the 172 item. That meant the shock mounting faces are now 1mm narrower than the structure leading upto it. When you compare a 172 upright to a Williams/Valver upright, it is generally lot bigger/fatter in its construction, to which I assume is for the extra weight of a 172 (200kg+ over mine), and/or because of the larger driveshaft/bearing setup. The 172 upright is probably still a lot stronger than a Williams/Valver upright even its machined (2mm each side) state, due to it having more material everywhere else. Ive had no worries about it because of this, and its been on the car since October 2008, covered 15+ trackdays and never had a problem...

When you compare a Williams stub to a 172 stub, it is narrower in the first place. I have taken the 172 stub down to aid with clearance, and because I dont see any problem with it considering the Williams/Valver/Mk1 item is thinner in the first place. The only reason a Williams/Valver/Mk1 stub was not pressed in is because the spline for the driveshaft is smaller, useless for me as im running 172 shafts.

The holes were drilled out to 1/2", basically just removing the thread. 1/2" is 12.7mm, what exact hole size does an M12 thread usually have? Must have only removed 0.2/3mm from each side of the hole if that when they were drilled out...

I could have got an eBay kit, or one from elsewhere etc, but ive heard about the studs winding out after a few trackdays time and time again on quite a few different forums. It always seemed to happen when people had done a trackday and come to change back to their road wheels, they would undo the nuts and the stud would come out with it - something I didnt want to be happening after the f*cked threads Ive had before! Im sure Andrew will reply and comment on the 'screw in' kit he recieved for his 5 before he did the press stud conversion if he reads this, the studs were pretty much monkey metal!

Going from that im quite confident that it is still just as strong, if not stronger than a Williams/Valver hub. Fair enough if any serious heat had been involved like we mentioned a few pages back (Welding or whatever), the metals properties may have changed/weakend etc, but its had nothing like that near it. The stubs were taken down on slow cut, and the uprights machined on a mill - nothing anywhere near the level of heat welding would generate. I went ahead with the idea as Andrew has ran it on his 5 racer, with the same press studs, same width machined stubs (his were Laguna hubs) and full slicks - Im sure if he'd had any problems he wouldnt have recommended the idea to me

Now you set it out like that it appears you have put some thought and 'science' into this and like you say its tried and tested by 15+ trackdays. Guess it just a case of keeping a close eye on things and regular inspections.

I have a simliar problem where by my wheel nuts go slack after 10+ laps on track :S think I need to go down the stud route to! Not sure of the best way to do this yet but I will certainly consider you method.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I would think you can probably get away with running the studs without taking material off the stub axle, but I didn't want to risk it and press them together with new bearings and find out they caught on the upright - as it would be a pair of bearings wasted! Although, next time Ive got a wheel off I will take a proper look as it would be ideal to just drill the thread and press the stud without having to do any machining. My next trackday is Mallory so I will see how it goes, hopefully no problems

 

[Andrew Cooke]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I would think you can probably get away with running the studs without taking material off the stub axle, but I didn't want to risk it and press them together with new bearings and find out they caught on the upright - as it would be a pair of bearings wasted! Although, next time Ive got a wheel off I will take a proper look as it would be ideal to just drill the thread and press the stud without having to do any machining. My next trackday is Mallory so I will see how it goes, hopefully no problems

I don't believe you will have a problem, the standard hub is 12mm which means that the bolts get 1D of engagement, barely enough, indeed, the MSA require 2D of engagement for wheel nuts.... I measured a set of ford hubs at the 9mm we are using.

btw, I still think you should buy better wheel bearings, see how these last, but I now only use genuine ones.

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah - the other ones were ok with no play or noise before but they had to come apart to do the conversion I guess...

Thing is too, someone I know owns a very large nationwide bearing supply company, every type you could think of - I thought he would be able to source something better than the factors but not as expensive as renault, but it seems we're struggling - the outer diameter is an easy match of 72mm, same with the depth easy to match, but the inner we cant seem to get right when the other two values are

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Bit of a sound clip from yesterday - the exhaust has changed the way it sounds over the past few thousand miles compared to when I first modified it...



...still, its only 97db so its all good!

 

[Paddy_g46]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

What exhaust set-up have u got on that?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

- Decat/Downpipe
- Modified Mongoose Center Section with Silencer Removed (2.5")
- Modified Mongoose Backbox with 2.5" Tip (And half the internal wadding removed)


Backbox Cut Open & Half of The Wadding Removed

Tip Removed

New Tip Welded On

 

[TimR26]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

That sounds good, what's it like inside the cabin?

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Sounds a lot different to outside (now ive heard it, lol). I had never heard it from outside, as since doing the changes above last year it seemend a lot quieter than the original Mongoose in general, especially when at 70mph. Probably leave it as is now as its under 98db, so shouldnt have a problem at any circuits!

 

[coxy777]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

That sounds mental on lift off! Love it!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Had the car off the floor the other day and noticed a bit of play in the drivers side hub bearing (few hundred miles old). I thought the bearing was knackered already, so ECP agreed to replace it free of charge if I returned the pieces of the 'broken' bearing. When I removed the hub it was a different story, the stub was moving inside the bearing but only at one end. Either way I pressed it apart which destroyed the bearing, so pressed the new one into the upright so its ready for whenever I sort it..

When looking at the stub, you can see the right hand half of the part that presses into the bearing is smaller. When measured with the verniers it is around 0.2mm smaller than the left hand side - how I have not got a clue, never noticed it last time!

As you can see, it can just be dropped into the bearing with no force required at all, itl only go halfway before it gets tight (to the proper width), where it needs to be pressed in...

No idea whats caused it as ive never noticed any play previously...looks like its new stub/machining/studs time

 

[david hodson]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

When they turned down your hub thickness did they polish your bearing surface with emery cloth?
it looks like it has had surface rust then been cleaned up

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Unsure, I turned them but had another guy clean them up for me... The other one is perfect with zero play and took a fair amount of force to press it in fully (as its always been), just wierd how this one is a loose fit and now useless!

 

[FR-Motorsport]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

i have seen such failure on some cars, not always renault!

all off them had really bad bearings, with almost a lot of play!
i guess that some/one off the bearings balls got milled and did destruction...

i have a hub part that looks exactly like yours, its from a opel!

handle it like a piece of scrap, it will destruct any new bearing!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah - at the time the bearing itself seemed perfectly fine (only covered a few hundred miles) but no doubt it would have got worse - its just wierd that the outer half of the stub was a smaller size, it literally drops into the bearing with room to spare whereas the inner half is a very tight fit (requires pressing). Not sure how just half of the stub's bearing face has reduced in size thats the thing!

Ive got four new studs, I just need a new hub/stud now so it can be machined down and pressed together. The other side (N/S) is perfect!

 

[f0xy]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The car performed well at Mallory over the weekend, not a single problem which is unusual! Especially towards the end of the day when the track was dry it drove brilliantly, quite some difference to how it did last year. Although, I was sometimes a bit hesitatnt round Gerrards as I didnt want a repeat of the gearbox failure! Raising the front end by a small amount beforehand and re-doing the tracking made quite a bit of difference to how it handled. The R888's were fine in the wet as long as you didnt drive like a hero, if you did it got interesting to say the least.

Once the track had dried out it was good to get some heat into the R888's letting the car carry a lot more speed through the corners compared to the morning where Gerrards was 60mph...



I tried something a bit different with the camera backwards this time too, had a really good battle with Whiteley. This was one of the first outings of the day and a very damp track, the speeds were getting a bit quick for the conditions towards the end so we came in..



There a couple more clips of other people (Tom@Wests Renault and AndyRG) on my YouTube if you are reading this. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOwYw-Uma7c and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5G-C0CbqjU I will probably cut all the best bits out of all the videos and put them into one eventually, but that can wait for now.

There is a little over 2 weeks to go until Oulton Park (1st September), which will be the last day of the year for the car. Not done many days this year due to all the work that happened between Jan-May, and only having the first one at Rockingham in June. After the problems with hubs there, then clutch failure at Cadwell in July, Mallory has been the first full day of the year without any problems. Hopefully Oulton will be the same!

The DS2500 pads are now basically non-existant, very little left on them and they will need replacing before Oulton. Ive got some Carbon Lorraine pads which are going in, so il probably fit them sometime soon. The discs are quite worn, but they will last another day - pointless replacing them if the car is going to be sat all winter. Last job is to find another hub and press it into my upright then fit it to the car so ive got studs on both sides

I was seriously contemplating braking the car over winter this time round - but considering I only started doing trackdays late this year, and having to replace the clutch last month, its most probably going to stay for another year. There isnt much work to do in comparison to last year, as the cage is finished and the interior is painted - which means I can just store it and use it next year!

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

What size are those tyres mate? they look quite big on the car compaired to your other pictures.


Lol at going uder a sign with 'Jordan' on it

Any idea what sort of lap times you were doing in the dry?