newbie with a clio cup race car

[MG cup]

Well it looks like it has worked in the real world so being logical (guessing) isn't always right.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well it looks like it has worked in the real world so logical (guessing) isn't always right.

Its got the same pressure as James standard one has though on the only figure posted so far so how do you deduce its worked?

And Ian hasnt yet posted any of the figures from idle and low down the rev range etc which is where I am saying it wont help as the spring is shut anyway, anywhere the valve is normally open then of course it will increase pressure!

 

[MG cup]

From what he's said it's an improvement over what he had. Anyway I'm out it got drawn out too far as usual...I await the final word post.

 

[Fred@BTM]

James nor Ian have stated at what temp or rpm their oil pressure is, therefore you're all guessing for no reason!!

 

[Chip-mk1]

James nor Ian have stated at what temp or rpm their oil pressure is, therefore you're all guessing for no reason!!

They have both stated RPM (Ian said 4000, and James was replying to say what his does for the same), but not oil temp.

and like I say the standard pumps have some quite poor tolerance so the only meaningful test is the same grade oil at the same temp on the SAME pump with and without the shim.

At which point I expect the higher rpm oil pressure to increase, but not the lower rpm.

 

[EVOgone]

Mine was 3bar hot 100deg at 4k with a new spring from France (few ex work guys i know who run private firms where i used to get my bits from) runs at 5-6bar under same conditions, using Millers 10/40. The spec for the Group A Clios was 5bar at 5k i think or something like that but run thinner oil than 10/60.

Running 3-3.5 bar in a comp engine hot at above 6-7k isnt good. Even the rule of thumb is 1bar per 1k rpm. Whatever the reason it seems to have worked but with mine it was the spring.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mine was 3bar hot 100deg at 4k with a new spring from France (few ex work guys i know who run private firms where i used to get my bits from) runs at 5-6bar under same conditions, using Millers 10/40. The spec for the Group A Clios was 5bar at 5k i think or something like that but run thinner oil than 10/60.

Running 3-3.5 bar in a comp engine hot at above 6-7k isnt good. Even the rule of thumb is 1bar per 1k rpm. Whatever the reason it seems to have worked but with mine it was the spring.

Maybe your standard spring had gone weak or was mis manufactured in some way, as 3 bar at 6-7K is way lower than I would expect, in which case a stiffer spring would certainly help.

 

[ian-speedy]

Driving around the trading estate late yesterday afternoon , I saw 5.4 bar of oil pressure at 4k revs , with oil temp at 85 , with my standard race car engine when I bought the car , and the engine that just threw a rod out would see 3.8 bar , this was two different bottom ends , and two different pumps , the one that blew was a brand new genuine Renault pump

Just to add , no shimming the pump will not give me more pressure at low revs , only higher up , all shimming the spring will do is delay when the bleed valve opens under max pressure , as far as I can see with the engines I have used ( 3 of them , I have gone from 3.8 bar to 5.4bar of oil pressure ) so to me it has worked

Cheers Ian

 

[Chip-mk1]

If the old spring pressure was 3.8 then that makes perfect sense Ian.
But it's weird that James (and lees engine too for that matter) were making so much more pressure than yours.

maybe there are different springs knocking around in different gen pumps?

Good news is at least you haven't over shimmed it if it's not going sky high.

 

[Jacky_T]

looks great and fit for purpose really interesting reading

 

[MG cup]

So now we know it works, are you willing to say how much you shimmed it Ian?

 

[ian-speedy]

Yes going sky high was in my mind as its a bugger to get the sump off with the engine being mounted on the subframe , wasn't looking forward to getting at it to change the shim , if anyone is interested I shimmed it 3.5mm

its weird how some are saying they have over 5 bar standard , but more are saying 3:5 to 4 , that's a big difference for it to be slight differences in the engines

 

[ian-speedy]

I'll never keep any info on my car , or what we have done to it , if it can help anyone else just ask

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes going sky high was in my mind as its a bugger to get the sump off with the engine being mounted on the subframe , wasn't looking forward to getting at it to change the shim , if anyone is interested I shimmed it 3.5mm

its weird how some are saying they have over 5 bar standard , but more are saying 3:5 to 4 , that's a big difference for it to be slight differences in the engines

Agreed. thats a huge difference.

I suspect largely down to other factors though, like the oil temp fred mentions, you might find that on a rally you are going to lose some of that new pressure when the temp goes up (although if you have a thicker fluid that will cancel it im sure)

 

[MG cup]

Cheers Ian, have you had a pump apart to look at the castings? I'm tempted to buy a new one and dress it for piece of mind.

Also did you see a higher pressure further up the revs?

 

[ian-speedy]

Yes when I change to Castrol edge 10/60 I might even get a bit more pressure when hot , this tesco stuff is like water !

yes the pressure is higher up the revs , up to say 3k it's about the same as standard , there are some pictures I added of the inside of a pump not so long ago on the link below, this was an after market pump not a genuine one though

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?713539-Updated-oil-pump-relief-spring

 

[Fred@BTM]

Oi, Castrol is banned!!! ANYTHING but castrol! (Millers if you can)

 

[mark123]

My pressure was 5 bar at 7k rpm with 10/50 oil at about 130 degrees

 

[Fred@BTM]

130degrees! crikey!

 

[steveboyslim]

Ian,

Where is the oil pressure sender mounted on the engine ?

Steve

 

[Fred@BTM]

where the OE oil pressure switch is on the front of the block

 

[steveboyslim]

James nor Ian have stated at what temp or rpm their oil pressure is, therefore you're all guessing for no reason!!

I have oil temperature and oil pressure data from James from Mallory and Oulton Park and I have data from other F4R engines, so no guessing from me.

Steve

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes when I change to Castrol edge 10/60 I might even get a bit more pressure when hot , this tesco stuff is like water !

yes the pressure is higher up the revs , up to say 3k it's about the same as standard , there are some pictures I added of the inside of a pump not so long ago on the link below, this was an after market pump not a genuine one though

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?713539-Updated-oil-pump-relief-spring

Exactly what I was expecting, the times when its under about 4 bar of pressure, its because the pump cant flow enough anyway and changing the spring or shimming it cant alter that, it can only give you more pressure at the places you were already overcoming the standard pressure spring.

Its that region that hopefully steves newly modified pump might improve a little as thats one of the places it is low, although for a competition car I dont suppose you are ever really down at those revs anyway!

 

[Fred@BTM]

you know what the interweb is like, everyone is bloody expert

 

[Tony Hunter]

you know what the interweb is like, everyone is bloody expert

Indeed.

 

[EVOgone]

Maybe your standard spring had gone weak or was mis manufactured in some way, as 3 bar at 6-7K is way lower than I would expect, in which case a stiffer spring would certainly help.

Was a brand new pump and spring.

 

[ian-speedy]

Regarding the oil pump , I wonder if it would work and have more low down pressure if a change of size in the drive on the pump , having a smaller gear made and fitted , along with shortening the chain , that would make the pump spin faster and produce more pressure , the unknown would be how it would cope at the high revs , and obviously spinning faster

 

[mark123]

I remember Matt/TDF posted that the stock oil pump was ok to about 8200 rpm transient, so you wouldn't change the pump speed much.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...n-F4R-Engine&p=7521521&viewfull=1#post7521521

 

[Chip-mk1]

Regarding the oil pump , I wonder if it would work and have more low down pressure if a change of size in the drive on the pump , having a smaller gear made and fitted , along with shortening the chain , that would make the pump spin faster and produce more pressure , the unknown would be how it would cope at the high revs , and obviously spinning faster

Its finding out the speed it starts cavitation which is the trick bit there. Not a game I'd want to be playing with an engine you care about TBH.

 

[EVOgone]

Its finding out the speed it starts cavitation which is the trick bit there. Not a game I'd want to be playing with an engine you care about TBH.

Just what I was thinking, as long as it got good oil pressure 4k and above I wouldn't worry.

 

[ian-speedy]

Just got back from a long day to Cornwall and back having the cars map tweaked , runs a lot cleaner low down now , it's nice and crisp now.
With the 10/60 oil I'm seeing 5.1 bar of oil pressure when it's at running temp , so happy with that

 

[EVOgone]

Spot on good news, all set for jersey now !

Any numbers ;-) should have asked him to put one of those PM manifolds on would suit the spec of your car.

 

[ian-speedy]

No didn't get any numbers , got those last time on the dyno , just did more work low down to make it crisper and pick up cleaner from 2k
its a lot nicer now : ) jersey here we come .

 

[Chip-mk1]

Good luck Ian

 

[ian-speedy]

Although I bought a new lamp pod last year , along with some good lights with HID bulbs , thought i'd actually get to use them this year after not taking the clio to Jersey last year , but I went to the rallycar show in Castle Coombe last week and seen some new LED spot lights on show , and after doing a bit of digging last week finding out about them decided I needed a set lol

Very lightweight , very easy to fit , and are very very bright , so should be able to see a bit more through the dark Jersey lanes on the friday night stages lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Lol, toy's.

 

[EVOgone]

Hasnt the MSA just outlawed these in a Blue book update? Was thinking of these myself. Big thing about LED vs origional fitment, carnt remeber the detail.

 

[ian-speedy]

Hasnt the MSA just outlawed these in a Blue book update? Was thinking of these myself. Big thing about LED vs origional fitment, carnt remeber the detail.

fvcking hope not after spending £1500 on them lol !

There are a couple of threads on the rally forum about them , and nothing has been said on there about banning them , and none of the outlets mentioned it after me telling them I want them for rallying ,

 

[ian-speedy]

Done a bit to te car again tonight , found yesterday the bottom rad hose was leaking slightly , must have been damaged when the rod came out of the side of the block , so ordered a hose kit yesterday which turned up today so fitted them , stripped the modene off as it was leaking oil where it fits against the block , so that's sorted now .
can get the hose kits at a good price so if anyone wants one pm me
discs had some cracking on them so made up a new pair today , I'm using Ferodo UNO pads which are very good , but can generate a lot of heat , more so as I left foot brake a lot , so will be bedding them in tomorrow to heat cycle them ready.

going to strip the front hubs off tomorrow and check the joints as something doesn't quite feel right , take it for tracking tomorrow then.

not much left to do now , really looking forward to jersey now

 

[MG cup]

Ian is that a standard disk of yours you sell...also could you machine up bells to give maximum spoke clearance?

Any links ideally to save me asking a million questions.