Subframe mount lower suspension arm hole wear - check your Clio!

[murcod]

Has anyone found wear in the subframe mounts where the lower suspension arm (wishbone) bolts through the frame? It seems there is a common problem with the rear most hole wearing and elongating.

See the pic below - the hole should be a tight fit around the bolt.

Obviously this will affect the steering response and handling - as well as making a "clunking" noise if the wear is bad enough.

There have been a number of RSC's affected in Australia (even low mileage vehicles), but I haven't found anything mentioned on here?

 

[Mase]

?

 

[Mase]

Mmm.. you are well on the mark there murcod with 95-98% of OZ RSC's who check the mount finding wear from minor to major depending on Km's and use. Even cars only 2 yrs old with 15K on them are wearing.. Surely being the RSC has been out in the UK for longer than OZ this must be a well know and reported issue? What do the UK crew do to resolve this?

Anyone?

 

[davebem]

Hmmm, not seen that before. Is it like it on both sides??

 

[Dave..]

Not seen that before... suppose it's just another of those little faults that renault let us have for free.

It's issues like this though that make me appreciate my car having been rebuilt with a new subframe 6 months ago.

 

[bmh.01]

Never seen that happen before either.

 

[franx]

can it be that a smaller bolt was used there ? Doés'nt look like the holes are worn, just looks like the bolt is too small/slim

^^ edit ^^ just read that there are more cars with this problem.. ?

 

[murcod]

That's the stock M12 bolt in the hole. It's not my RSC, but a guy off OzRS who races his 172 in Production Car racing- so this is hopefully a "worst case" scenario.

It happens on both sides and the damage isn't apparent until you actually loosen off the rear most bolt on each side and slide it out of the way to view the hole.

My 2005 RSC 182 has noticeable wear and it's only covered 15000km (and I don't drive it hard....) From what I've found I'd suggest ALL 172's / 182's would have some wear in that area- but like I said you can't see it unless you loosen that bolt off and slide it out the way to view the hole.

 

[hkka]

I will definitely check mine.
My knocking happens only on driver side.
If it wear, will a bigger bolt solve the problem??
Or new subframe? But how much is a new subframe?
Does MK1 use the same subframe as MK2? Junkyard!

 

[murcod]

A bigger bolt won't work because it has to fit through the lower arm bush.

Some Aussie guys have had metal welded on to repair the hole by a mechanic in Sydney, but I haven't seen any pics of what he does exactly. The one I posted above has been fixed by welding a M12 high tensile washer in place - see below (pic not very clear, but you'll get the gist of it):

 

[murcod]

Here are pics of mine (this is a 15000km vehicle, never track raced) :
LHS

A shot trying to show the hole elongation

RHS

 

[Fred@BTM]

in 8years i've never seen that!!!

 

[murcod]

in 8years i've never seen that!!!

:S Then I'm confused by how many Aussie cars seem to have varying amounts of wear in those areas. Unless it's to do with our rough roads or something?

I'm in my late thirties and realistically drive it very sedately compared to some other RSC owners I know. I've never turned off the traction control/ ESP, it's never been on a race track or anything like that. I had a feeling something wasn't quite right because it's been "tram lining" a lot under power (torque steering badly over rutted roads.) I'm sure it never did that when I first bought it.

The local dealer has inspected it and I'm now waiting on Renault Australia's response. I have 4 months warranty left and obviously don't consider this "fair wear and tear".

 

[murcod]

OK. I helped another person who owns a 172 inspect his subframe tonight- this example has done under 50000km.

Right hand side:

Left hand side:

The wear is clearly evident again.

You guys might need to take a closer look- I find it hard to believe only Aussie cars are affected? :S

 

[Fred@BTM]

i'll have a look into it, i doubt that bracket will be a close tollerance fit anyway, they'll be some margin of tollerance when manufactured, are the bolts coming loose? are then torqued up?

 

[murcod]

i'll have a look into it, i doubt that bracket will be a close tollerance fit anyway, they'll be some margin of tollerance when manufactured, are the bolts coming loose? are then torqued up?

Thanks Fred.

No the bolts aren't coming loose- they've actually got Nyloc nuts fitted. Mine and the one I checked last night were both tight and required a decent length socket drive to undo.

It's only the rear most hole on the rear mount that is suffering from the wear- which I figure is under the most stress? The front hole on the rear mount isn't affected and is a close tolerance fit on the bolt on the RSC's I've seen.

The front mount on the other end of the wishbone/ control arm actually has an extra bracket that runs up to the body- perhaps to prevent this sort of thing happening at that end?

I'm not sure if you're a member on Oz RenaultSport but here is a detailed thread on it http://www.ozrenaultsport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9842 - you'll see a number of members have had their RSC's inspected and found the same thing.

 

[hkka]

Hi murcod,

Before u fit the washer, U got any problem like knocking when brake, speed bump and sometimes when turing the steering on parking???

And, does the washer solve any problem??

I want to solve my knocking problem.

 

[Tony Hunter]

How strange

 

[murcod]

Hi murcod,

Before u fit the washer, U got any problem like knocking when brake, speed bump and sometimes when turing the steering on parking???

And, does the washer solve any problem??

I want to solve my knocking problem.

Hi, mine actually hasn't been fixed yet.

I'm currently being a "guinea pig" and going through Renault Australia as a warranty claim- they are investigating the issue but I've been told they've never seen or heard of it before.

Just on the OzRS forum there are a number of vehicles that have shown wear when inspected by disassembling the bolt (it's impossible to check for wear without undoing the bolt.) I think there's only one guy who's claiming to NOT have any wear- every other vehicle that has been checked properly (via undoing the bolt) has had wear.

Clunking in the front suspension has been reported by the owners of affected vehicles. I do get a slight clunk when turning right through spoon drains, "tram lining" / torque steer on lumpy roads and find on sweeping bends the front will "dart" if I hit a mid corner bump under power.

The guys who have had the repairs done have reported a big improvement in steering response, no more clunking and much improved handling. Probably the best thing would be to join up and read the whole thread (it's currently 8 pages long) http://www.ozrenaultsport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9842&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

[murcod]

I helped check out two more RSC's this weekend.

The first had done around 40000km (IIRC?), pics are below. The owner said they're a fairly sedate driver and wasn't expecting wear:

LHS

RHS

This one was different from the others I've checked as the RHS bolt was loose so could easily be removed completely without fear of the wishbone moving out of alignment. The pic below shows a clearer view without the bolt head in the way (another bolt was inserted from the other side just in case the wishbone suddenly moved.)

Now the second RSC - I'm not sure how many kms it's done? Once again a pic below of the LHS:

We didn't bother checking the RHS on this vehicle as it's obvious what we would have found.

 

[franx]

you need a brand new vehicle to compare ?

 

[murcod]

Well, I guess it would be good to show what it should look like for comparison, but the bottom line is the hole should be a close tolerance fit around the bolt shaft. Any movement in this joint will result in toe changes every time you accelerate, brake or hit a bump.

Renault Australia are investigating, but currently I'm the only person who has raised the problem. I'm trying to gather more evidence to show them how wide spread the problem is- so they will hopefully come up with a properly engineered fix.

 

[rich_1989]

does this explain my clonking whlist on full lock doin manuvers?

 

[Tony Hunter]

does this explain my clonking whlist on full lock doin manuvers?

Thats sounds more like the top mount washers

 

[richlaw666]

i got a 05 plate 182 in uk and it just started clonking a couple of days ago took it to quick fit and they could not find anything wrong with it might book it into renault to see is it expensive this kinda repair

 

[caister]

^^Theres nobody thicker than a quickfit fitter..... Get it to someone who knows what there looking at!

 

[rich_1989]

^^Theres nobody thicker than a quickfit fitter..... Get it to someone who knows what there looking at!

3 hours in the quick fit wating room and the mechanic comes out covered in oil and says, " yep, thats definatly a car..., i have a city and guilds level one ya kno"

 

[franx]

Murcod you have started a good thing here , hope that more people will check and post up their pics here ; good evidence for your case with Renault

Keep this thread in mind everybody for next time your car is on the bridge so pics can be taken !!

What needs to be removed to see this , or is it visible when just moving steer full lock ?

 

[Gary-Lew]

This is quite an issue on the Ozrenaultsport.com site. Quite a few have this problem

 

[franx]

if they do, everybody does.. good that someone has noticed !

Maybe if almost all Clio owners react to this having the same problem, Renault will be forced to call back all cars to modify !

 

[ClioF1]

if they do, everybody does.. good that someone has noticed !

Maybe if almost all Clio owners react to this having the same problem, Renault will be forced to call back all cars to modify !

Exactly, nothing special about Aussie delivered cars, they're identical mechanically to UK cars.

I first raised the problem on our forum after talking to a mechanic that specialises in Clios here in Sydney.

Thanks to murcod's work in checking other cars, it is clear that the problem affects all RS Clios to a degree.

 

[murcod]

Thanks for the replies- it's been hard to get people to take notice of this "issue". Unless other people start making noise about it to Renault they won't take any action - ultimately a recall and some sort of properly engineered fix would be the "perfect" outcome.

To check for this you'll need to jack the front up and remove the wheel. Make sure you use a jack stand to support the vehicle (just in case.... or else at least put the removed wheel under the vehicle so it won't fall too far if the worst happens.) Leave it in gear and have the hand brake on firmly- chocking the diagonally opposite rear wheel isn't a bad idea either (just to be sure.)

You'll need two 18mm socket sets - one with a decent length drive to undo the bolt. (Or a 18mm socket and a 18mm ring spanner will do the job.) The rear bolt is the one you need to undo and then you'll need to gently "tap" it to get it to slide out a bit so you can see the sub frame hole. I use an offcut of wood and leave the nut on the end of the bolt to prevent thread damage - place the wood through from the front of the wheel arch (through under the drive shaft) and place it on the end of the loosened bolt. A couple of gentle taps on the wood with a small hammer will be enough to slide the bolt so you can see the sub frame hole.

DON'T remove the bolt completely as you'll have trouble aligning the lower arm with the sub frame holes to refit it.

Once the bolt is slid back you'll be able to see the sub frame hole and inspect for any damage. The hole should be a close tolerance fit around the bolt shaft. Even an extra millimetre diameter is unwanted wear.

When refitting it should ideally be torqued to 90Nm (the wheel nuts are also the same torque if you're fussy like me!)

 

[franx]

my subframe will be off anyway this week; hope to be able to make some pics . I will tell the people working on the car to watch out for this

 

[racingroo]

Thanks for your hard work with this Murcod! If we can prove all clios are affected renault must have to do something!

 

[murcod]

my subframe will be off anyway this week; hope to be able to make some pics . I will tell the people working on the car to watch out for this

That would be fantastic if you can take pics. I think a lot of Aussies are simply burying their heads in the sand and ignoring the problem. It's making it hard for me to make Renault Australia take notice.

I have forwarded on all the pics I've taken to my local dealer and asked them to forward them straight to Renault. Mine will be going back in shortly to be disassembled so they can take better measurements of the wear and where it's located exactly.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Good work

 

[richlaw666]

going to get some stick for this well i was hearing the noise as you saying and well just noticed today it was just me who never tightened my wheel nuts lol but the worse thing is quick fit never noticed this either

 

[franx]

^^ wow, could have been nasty

 

[murcod]

Another 182 Cup has been inspected on OzRS forums http://www.ozrenaultsport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=160132#160132

It's covered 32000km / 20000 miles and has wear like the others. Pics are in the above thread.

Evidence is mounting that all Phase II RSC's are affected to some degree.

 

[Martin_172]

ill inspect mine on friday.