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Subframe mount lower suspension arm hole wear - check your Clio!
RS RIP
Are you sure about the 12mm, cause this would mean 1,2 cm !? A reallllly thick washer
My Renault specialist said that in the track cars they have also encountered this and they welded two half moon shapes, almost like these washers, on there !!
Are you sure about the 12mm, cause this would mean 1,2 cm !? A reallllly thick washer
I believe 12mm is the diameter of the hole in the middle of the washer.
I haven't had mine checked yet (05 182 with 32,000km).
Not a poxy Renault
Had a look at mine today (drivers side only) The hole on the bolt head side is enlarged about 3mm, its perfectly round and I can't find any signs of excessive movement causing the widening of the hole. There is no swarf, the bolt has no excessive marks (I'd expect a big groove all around it) and there are no signs on the outside of the frame to suggest the bolt has been wandering. It looks like the hole has been manufactured too big. 2005 182 on 35k:
#
Right guys i collected the washers today and had them welded in place by my dad, I hadn't looked at the passenger side until today and it had similar wear to the d/side but not as bad, so we did both sides.
The noise on mine was quite loud and could be clearly heard by passengers so much so that they would ask what the clunking was, but in the 8 mile journey to drop my dad off neither of us heard a sound, so result!! so it seems this was indeed the cause of my noise and no doubt the answer to quite a few other peoples mystery noise....
Part number for the washer is - 77 03 053 987 and its called a Rondelle Plate (12 mm) and is £0.99 +vat each.
Will get a picture of the washer welded in place off my phone shortly.
The noise on mine was quite loud and could be clearly heard by passengers so much so that they would ask what the clunking was, but in the 8 mile journey to drop my dad off neither of us heard a sound, so result!! so it seems this was indeed the cause of my noise and no doubt the answer to quite a few other peoples mystery noise....
Part number for the washer is - 77 03 053 987 and its called a Rondelle Plate (12 mm) and is £0.99 +vat each.
Will get a picture of the washer welded in place off my phone shortly.
Glad to see you got a positive result and fixed the suspension noise Gavin. Has the handling improved as well- all the Aussies who have fixed it have said it has?PPTom, the hole is enlarged through wear. Even looking at your pics the edge of the hole isn't neatly formed like it would be if drilled that way. Most of the ones I've looked at also show a thickening around the edge of the hole where the subframe metal has been compressed from the bolt moving. I think it's more a case of the soft subframe metal being compressed rather than worn- hence the lack of swarf. The reason the bolt isn't worn is because it's made from a harder metal. (PS: If the hole is supposed to be that big Renault Australia wouldn't be investigating my 182.)
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Well, an interesting development:
I got in contact with the dealer, Renault have got back to them claiming that the "number 1 hole" (i.e. the one with the wear) is deliberately made larger "for ease of assembly on the production line"
. Renault claim to have measured a new subframe -> however they didn't include the measurements from it (I've asked for the dealer to get that info from Renault- or for a picture with the bolt in place in a new sub frame.)
It still doesn't explain:
1. The knocking noise and how at least two people have cured it by welding on washers,
2. The improvement in handling reported by many people who have gone the washer route,
3. The visible difference in hole sizes in the posted pics
4. The "thickening" of the metal around the hole edge/ lip,
5. The hole elongation reported by at least one Aussie owner and a Renault Specialist Mechanic,
6. How two people can claim the hole in their sub frame isn't enlarged like the others!?
I got in contact with the dealer, Renault have got back to them claiming that the "number 1 hole" (i.e. the one with the wear) is deliberately made larger "for ease of assembly on the production line"
It still doesn't explain:
1. The knocking noise and how at least two people have cured it by welding on washers,
2. The improvement in handling reported by many people who have gone the washer route,
3. The visible difference in hole sizes in the posted pics
4. The "thickening" of the metal around the hole edge/ lip,
5. The hole elongation reported by at least one Aussie owner and a Renault Specialist Mechanic,
6. How two people can claim the hole in their sub frame isn't enlarged like the others!?
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Not a poxy Renault
By the way, on mine I have had no knocking. The only time I ever had is when the ball joint failed on the drivers side wishbone. I replaced the balljoint without replacing the wishbone and have therefore never tampered with the offending bolt. The edge of the hole on mine doesn't look neat because its dirty, its not burred up as the picture might suggest. And I would expect at least some wear on the bolt shaft if its displaced 1.5mm of metal around the whole of the perimeter. The Renault explanation 'seems' plausible, just so long as everyones bolts are correctly torqued, which would explain the washer fix (bolts removed and re-fitted therefore re-tightened) On the other hand, being cynical, they could just be fobbing you off!
The thing is, it took Renault 7 attempts to fix my leaking headlight washer jet and that was with help from their 'technical department' they are such a big company that its even trouble for them to get info. The only way to be sure is if somone could confirm from the original drawings, which is highly unlikely to ever happen
The thing is, it took Renault 7 attempts to fix my leaking headlight washer jet and that was with help from their 'technical department' they are such a big company that its even trouble for them to get info. The only way to be sure is if somone could confirm from the original drawings, which is highly unlikely to ever happen
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I just find it hard to believe it would come out of a factory like that, as i'm pretty sure its quite important to have a 'zero tolerance' on any steering/suspension related component, as that sort of movement cannot be beneficial surely?
As for the larger hole to help ease of assembly, i had no problems getting the bolt in and out with it just jacked up using the factory sill jack and in a production line i should imagine those components are assembled in much more ideal working environments....
But like Tom the only true answer is to get some actual dimensions off renault - or if anyone on here who works in dealership could measure a new subframe if they had access to one...
Driven mine again today for 30 + miles and my noise has 100% dissapeared after welding those washers in place.
As for the larger hole to help ease of assembly, i had no problems getting the bolt in and out with it just jacked up using the factory sill jack and in a production line i should imagine those components are assembled in much more ideal working environments....
But like Tom the only true answer is to get some actual dimensions off renault - or if anyone on here who works in dealership could measure a new subframe if they had access to one...
Driven mine again today for 30 + miles and my noise has 100% dissapeared after welding those washers in place.
I've got no doubt in my mind that they're not telling the entire truth about the hole size. I will be taking it a lot further.
I've even thought about ordering a new sub frame on the condition that they'll pay for it if the hole isn't larger like they claim. Apparently there are none in Australia so I don't even know where they got the measurements from- or if it's Renault Australia who have given that response or Renault France.....
Bottom line is (if I do order a new one) the new subframe could magically get drilled out before I received it. I've lost faith in them from their dubious response.
I've even thought about ordering a new sub frame on the condition that they'll pay for it if the hole isn't larger like they claim. Apparently there are none in Australia so I don't even know where they got the measurements from- or if it's Renault Australia who have given that response or Renault France.....
Bottom line is (if I do order a new one) the new subframe could magically get drilled out before I received it
. I've lost faith in them from their dubious response.OK, one of the Aussie guys found this old thread from 2006 mentioning the same problem. Note the size of the hole and the vehicle has done only 4500km!
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=133062&highlight=lower+control+arm
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=133062&highlight=lower+control+arm
Apologies but I’ve skipped some/most of the thread, could someone with an engineering background please explain why the enlarged whole seems perfectly round when in reality the actual motion is mostly up and down.
If this doesn’t make any sense then I’m blaming the four glasses of ron Zacapa rum I’ve just swallowed. :drunk:
If this doesn’t make any sense then I’m blaming the four glasses of ron Zacapa rum I’ve just swallowed. :drunk:
ph1 172
OK, one of the Aussie guys found this old thread from 2006 mentioning the same problem. Note the size of the hole and the vehicle has done only 4500km!
if that hole had been caused by the bolt, i would expect to see thred marks on the inside of the hole. A threaded bolt cannot leave the hole smooth on the inside!
ph1 172
where as this one looks like the bolt has made it bigger. This is the wear you would expect from braking (pushing the rear bolt in)
the wishbone doesnt hold the weight of the car, the shock does. The wishbone stops the wheel from flapping back and forward or in and out, both of which will wear it like above.
Not a poxy Renault
^Thats mine I have seen it up close and personal and can assure you that its not worn. I don't think you can draw conclusions from a photograph. By the way, just to qualify my opinion, I graduated as an Engineer 12 years ago and I've spent a couple of years looking at metal fatigue whilst working at an F1 engine manufacturer.
Once again, I have no knocking problems and never have in the last 16k miles of ownership (2 years) and therefore no cause to suspect anything is wrong.
Once again, I have no knocking problems and never have in the last 16k miles of ownership (2 years) and therefore no cause to suspect anything is wrong.
This one has quite clearly worn
OOOOOOOOOOPPPPPSSSSSSSSSS:quiet:
This one has quite clearly worn
I'd agree, there's movement there and the bush shouldn't be moving at all.
The bolt has been reversed for the photo- it actually gets inserted through that end and the non-threaded section beneath the bolt head would make contact there.
For anyone who thinks there is no movement, here is a pic from the same car with a view of the marks left by the bush inside the subframe mount. Now tell me if the bush is moving or not in that pic. It shouldn't move at all.
A cut and paste from OZRS of the latest news:
Another update:
I talked to the RAA Technical Department this morning (Roadside assistance organisiation for UK people.) They weren't too sure if it was an issue or not from the pics of mine and the three 172's. I'm going to forward more photos. They did however say that the centre part of the bush and the bolt should NOT move at all (ie. rotate or move around in the hole.) The rubber section of the bush is supposed to allow for the wishbone (lower arm) movement.
I also just got off the phone to MNR (local dealer)- Renault have not come back and supplied the measurement specs for the rear hole or photos as requested (no surprise there really
). Josh read out their technical explanation - which does make a bit more sense as to why the hole would be larger, it was something along the lines of this:
"The rear hole is larger to allow for manufacturing tolerances. It's larger to allow the wishbone to align itself when the front and rear wishbone bolts are tightened - so the softer sheet metal the subframe is constructed from is not deformed ."
(that's from memory, so only a rough explanation.)
Oh, and he got me a price for a new sub frame - try $1900 list price!
In the "Price of Parts" thread two people (in the past) have been quoted around $1057 IIRC, looks like the price has gone up.
Another update:
I talked to the RAA Technical Department this morning (Roadside assistance organisiation for UK people.) They weren't too sure if it was an issue or not from the pics of mine and the three 172's. I'm going to forward more photos. They did however say that the centre part of the bush and the bolt should NOT move at all (ie. rotate or move around in the hole.) The rubber section of the bush is supposed to allow for the wishbone (lower arm) movement.
I also just got off the phone to MNR (local dealer)- Renault have not come back and supplied the measurement specs for the rear hole or photos as requested (no surprise there really
"The rear hole is larger to allow for manufacturing tolerances. It's larger to allow the wishbone to align itself when the front and rear wishbone bolts are tightened - so the softer sheet metal the subframe is constructed from is not deformed ."
(that's from memory, so only a rough explanation.)
Oh, and he got me a price for a new sub frame - try $1900 list price!
Vw caddy tdi
Obviously when welding washer in place to correct above faults this will slightly effect the final wheel position including camber, castor and tracking ? My question is ifso how to determine the exact position to weld the new tensile washer/ id 12mm as the wear is not uniform? How should the washer be placed in the correct position?? with the lower arm removed? with or without bolt in place? or with lower arm fitted to car ?
Vw caddy tdi
Obviously when welding washer in place to correct above faults this will effect the final wheel position including camber, castor and tracking ? My question is ifso how to determine the exactly position of the new tensile washer/12mm should be as the wear is not uniform? How should the washer be placed in the correct position? with arm removed and bolt in place from reverse? or with arm fitted in position under load on the car ?
M
mini-valver
Mine is worn too. 1.6 Dynamique.
MK2 FRS/Mini Type R
I have this knocking / creaking noise when turning going over speed bumps etc...
Reading this thread has given me mixed opinions about the wear in the hole. The only solution I have seen that makes sense was from Butler205.... is this the proven cure then?? a set of poly bushes!??
Reading this thread has given me mixed opinions about the wear in the hole. The only solution I have seen that makes sense was from Butler205.... is this the proven cure then?? a set of poly bushes!??
ripp
ClioSport Club Member
182 FFAT
I am going to order a new subframe in about a month and will tell you guys the price and hole diameters.. worth mentioning that I have the powerflex arm bushes, and unfortunately the outer sleeves supplied came out of the arm a little bit and made some grooves in the subfame mountings..
so if someone is going to fit powerflex bushes I suggest to weld the outer sleeves to the arm like I did in order to fix a future problem
so if someone is going to fit powerflex bushes I suggest to weld the outer sleeves to the arm like I did in order to fix a future problem
Castor will be unaffected by welding the washer in any position, and the camber and toe are adjustable so welding the washer on will cause you no problems.
As with any work carried out on the suspension, it is always advised to have geometery rechecked once the work is complete.
I'll be fitting some poly bushes later in the year, so i'll keep an eye out for this hole's condition.
Chris
172 cup & 182
The rear bolt hole on both sides (the ones near the steering-rack) are slightly oversize compared to the rest this helps to align the front suspension.
The problem arises if the bolts are not torqued up properly and can move about to enlarge the holes.
The pictures only appear to show one bolt that was loose and enlarged the hole,
the rest look normal.
The problem arises if the bolts are not torqued up properly and can move about to enlarge the holes.
The pictures only appear to show one bolt that was loose and enlarged the hole,
the rest look normal.
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