Tuning continues.....

[The Seer]

So far current mods are ITG Maxogen filter, YozzaSport de-cat, BTB full system. Brembo Max discs, DS 2500 pads, braided lines. 4 x 16" O.Z. SuperTurismo WRC's.

Tomorrow sees the addition of Cat 420 cams with matched inlets (manifold sprayed satin black) and fitment of 182 engine cover in Racing Blue at Angelworks (along with cam and auxillary belt change). Real good price also.

Journeying north the day after to RS Tuning for a live map to get the most of the mods.

This is the most I've spent on mods so far. Must buy a thicker wallet.

Looking forward to the extra go-go.

 

[The Seer]

The lowdown on the tuning expedition...

Dropped the car off at Angelworks for the above mentioned products. Returned later in the day. VERY pleased indeed with the work done to the car. As asked Ben had sprayed the inlet manifold along with various other engine parts in satin black. Really does look good.

Along with the supplied and fitted cams, cam and auxillary belt, sprayed engine parts, Ben had also changed the oil, oil filter and plugs. All for £1388. What a fantastic price!!!

Well done Ben!:star: :star:

The following day the car visited RS Tuning. Firstly a dyno session without mapping proceeded to determine everything was ok. A wheel figure of 143 and flywheel of 173 was given after three runs. I thought this was a little low considering the mods added to the car so far but felt once properly mapped a figure of 185-190 would be seen.

After a couple of hours I returned. Despite Paul's efforts to get the most, a wheel figure of 149 and flywheel of 180 appeared .

Obviously I'm not too pleased as I've always felt the car needed more power. As I'm aware tuning N/A's isn't cheap and the gains are minimal unless a good 5K or so is thrown at it.

Yes, there is noticeable difference in how the car now performs. It is better a pulls more so after 4.5K with a little more go lower down. Though I thought with the mods I'm using it would've developed more.

Anybody else experience similiar results from running similiar mods?

A somewhat disappointed and confused Clio owner.

 

[theduck]

sounds like it was running shy before?

 

[Cro]

I would have said comparing to other owners with cams you would have been up round the high 180s/ low 190 mark, strange! no other problems or anything? maybe a good thrashing for a while might waken it up

 

[The Seer]

I bought the car a nearly a year back with 15K on her. At the time I was VERY disappointed with the lack of "go" to it.

I was told the engine needed to loosened up with hard driving. If it wasn't done soon it could be too late.

She's now on 32500 and since that piece of advice hard driving has been employed nearly every day. Yeah I did notice things loosen up a bit after a few weeks of spirted driving.

Paul at RS Tuning did say he tried his best with numerous runs. Said he would need to use a compression test if he felt it wasn't developing enough power before mapping. He didn't do this so I guess the engine was good for a re-map. Even though the overall figures aren't that great at all.

 

[The Seer]

sounds like it was running shy before?

Yeah I suspect this may be the case. Went for dyno run in the local area for concerns of lack of power when first purchased (June '07). 134 at the wheels. She did loosen up in the following weeks due to using the loud pedal frequently...but loosened up enough??:S

 

[Waitey]

Sounds odd. Tuning N/A really doesn't do it for me.

I paid £300 for 30bhp with mine lol

 

[mattjk]

What are pauls rollers like are they "ego busters" or quite generous?

Seems very odd. Does it burn any oil at all?

What about obvious stuff like tyre pressures (which would have affected the RR)

I suppose either Ben or Paul would have noticed if anything major was up. Ben will probably see this later and may have a few ideas

 

[franx]

i remember another thread ; someone's car was running the same, it was "off-time" a bit, cam/timing wise ? cost him about 25bhp..

 

[Waitey]

What are pauls rollers like are they "ego busters" or quite generous?

Seems very odd. Does it burn any oil at all?

What about obvious stuff like tyre pressures (which would have affected the RR)

I suppose either Ben or Paul would have noticed if anything major was up. Ben will probably see this later and may have a few ideas

Pauls rollers are spot on.

 

[MarkCup]

That's got to be an error, my Cup makes that with just a panel and decat!

I know Jay (Burp) had a problem with his 172 running approx. 134 ATW, but that was traced back to the cambelt being a tooth or so out.

I'm sure if Ben did it (changed/fitted a new one for you) it'll be spot on...there's got to be something else up somewhere?

 

[Nigel]

I've seen two cars with cams only just make more power than ones with filter, inlets and remap.

Mine and Kullys were only about 5bhp off VXRKiller's who had cams.

 

[The Seer]

What are pauls rollers like are they "ego busters" or quite generous?

Seems very odd. Does it burn any oil at all?

What about obvious stuff like tyre pressures (which would have affected the RR)

I suppose either Ben or Paul would have noticed if anything major was up. Ben will probably see this later and may have a few ideas

I think the front tyre pressures are 31-32. No oil consumption at all. Thinking about having a compression test done.

Rollers are realistic I believe.

 

[Nigel]

How does it drive though? Does it feel quicker?

Can you try and see how it compares to another 182, maybe a spirited drive?

 

[Gaz_]

I've seen two cars with cams only just make more power than ones with filter, inlets and remap.

Mine and Kullys were only about 5bhp off VXRKiller's who had cams.

Agree. My old Cup recently made circa 190hp ish...... Maxogen, grp N remap, inlets, decat with exhaust.

 

[The Seer]

That's got to be an error, my Cup makes that with just a panel and decat!

I know Jay (Burp) had a problem with his 172 running approx. 134 ATW, but that was traced back to the cambelt being a tooth or so out.

I'm sure if Ben did it (changed/fitted a new one for you) it'll be spot on...there's got to be something else up somewhere?

oh there's something up alright, but where the fault lies, I don't know. However I was told by both Ben and Paul that most cars with all the mods I have don't see much more than cicra 190 at the flywheel.

Ben did say that the 172's respond better than 182's oddly enough to mods.

 

[The Seer]

How does it drive though? Does it feel quicker?

Can you try and see how it compares to another 182, maybe a spirited drive?

There's any increase in power, yes. It does have more top end grunt. Slightly quicker lower down.

Just sticks in the throat when I think to myself I've paid 2K and only have 180 bhp.:dapprove:

 

[Neil G]

Definately a lot of money for the gains, I can see why your dissapointed

I'm not even going to RR mine as I know I'll be dissapointed too, TBH my 172 feels positively average from the driving seat

 

[The Seer]

I'm wondering if due to being driven easy in it's first 15K, the engine can never properly loosen up. As I've said, since given welly after 15K it has loosened, but maybe not enough and never will.

 

[ditz]

engines dont really run in like that, all you can do when "running in" is try to aid ring bedding but its more down to how the engines built in the first place
and loads of different engine builders will have different ways of how they like to do that..

get it compression tested and confirm it

 

[bmh.01]

Seems very strange indeed, something isn't right somewhere. I'd have gone along with cam timing being off but if ben's done it i'd be pretty confident in the work so does seem strange. Its still worth checking the timing along with a compression test though I think.

 

[ditz]

yeah, agree with bmh really.
as said i've read nothing but good things about angelworks but ben himself will tell you mistakes can happen every now and then.
maybe it book it in with him so he can double check that and faultfind the rest of the engine

 

[The Seer]

Agreed. E-mailed Ben on fault finding and compression test prices.

Just 180 bhp is odd from all the mods made.:S

 

[franx]

i'm saying; what if yours was off timing for starters and then with refitting new cams no-one noticed this ?

When fitting your cams they will have assumed your setup was correct; used the locking tools and set up your new cams the same as your old ones ??
When reading the other thread it sounds like the amount of hp you're missing here...

 

[theduck]

^^ good point

 

[mini-valver]

You lock the bottom end at TDC and the cams have a locking pin too IIRC so there's not really anyway it can be out by using the tools as far as I can tell. (I've never done one on an F4R so all of the above could be horse s**t)

 

[bmh.01]

The cams and crank lock like so:
http://gallery.getflat.co.uk/v/My_C...ambelt/DSC00243.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2
http://gallery.getflat.co.uk/v/My_C...ambelt/DSC00245.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=2

The only way I can see it going wrong is in the cam changing procedure somewhere. Although its possible to pin the crank in a balancing hole instead of the timing slot, although as bens done it I doubt it very much as he's probably done a fair few by now.

 

[franx]

^^ not in any doubt of Ben's rep. Was a wild guess i made, do'nt know how the locking procedure works.

It just seems possible when reading this ;

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=316872&highlight=142

 

[Anonymous]

Give Ben a call Seer, I am certain he will do everything he can to make sure your a happy customer at minimum expense.

 

[ben_p]

seems strange, Pancho made 196hp with them mods! :O

i think julzh made 187 un-mapped!

 

[ben_p]

just a point btw, its not all about peak HP! have you got a graph? my mate had a redtop with peaky as f**k cams! it made liek 189hp peak... but at 8000 rpm LOL

stock cars were almost as quick! whicle he was sitting round waiting for the redline.. they were sailing past!

 

[RSTuning]

As i said on the day the temps were really getting up in the dyno room and the car was red hot after all the runs!

I think there is at least another 5hp+ in there.

It was a nice strong curve too, smooth torque from quite low down

The figures dont really mean too much if you are comparing to "my mate got 200hp" yes maybe but not on the same dyno. As you know DD are not ones for giving nice figures like some

Paul

 

[BenR]

Spoke to Mark at length yesterday about the issue, and we could not come to any reasonable conclusion. It is certainly low on power, but maybe its our fault for not checking where it started off initially.

Even if the cam timing was off as standard, this would be rectified with the new cam installation. One thing mark did mention was that peak power started tailing off pretty early in the rpm range (circa 6200rpm he mentioned), but i have not seen the graph so i would not know apart from what has been relayed to myself.

I did offer him the opportunity for a leakdown and comp test, along with double checking the cam timing. I also offered him the option to try a wilder set of cams, if he felt this was the issue, with labour FOC.

Ideally I would like to get it on the rollers we use in this area which do our base runs on stock cars, so it would be a good place to start for comparison.

 

[mattjk]

Sounds like an offer you cant refuse. What cams are in there at the mo?

 

[BenR]

420's

But he should be making the power he has anyway with a stock engine and all the breathing mods alone.

 

[mattjk]

Yeah you would have thought so, strange... Did you forget to put them in possibly?

 

[BenR]

We usually fix the cars where others forget to put them in, so highly doubt it.

 

[mattjk]

Just ribbing you bud lol

 

[BenR]

i was ribbing back...........too dry?

 

[ben_p]

get a room!