RS2 makes 150lbft for almost entire rev range and 190bhp on standard engine :)

[Cup_Phil]

Yeah I know it's big enough - that's why there are some people with cams and internals doing over 200bhp with standard throttle body - I was just saying the comparison of an RS2 is basically the same as ITB's with an airbox is not entirely true - ITB's have far more potential

As you say the issue with the RS2 is it is compromised by having to fit around the slam panel. The xtra one I saw that had a bigger plenum looked better but I think only one was made

 

[Jonny1*2]

 

[gti6steve]

Here's mine on a standard inlet and cams not bad for 94000 miles

 

[Chip-mk1]

DanielG, your car is failing to make the power for a reason other than the RS2, I cant tell you what that is without the car in front of me, might be that henk has got the ignition advance completely wrong for the RS2 for example, but the fact that MWM can make the power on it and he hasnt done on your car, is either a reflection on him or a reflection on some other limiting factor on your car, maybe one of your leads is breaking down with the extra cylinder pressures for example.
Could be any number of things faulty, but its very unlikely that the holes in the jenvey manifold have decided not to let air through them anymore for example, lol

 

[DanielG]

Virtually proving my point with that graph about you pommies and corrected flywheel power. 133 hp atw somehow translates into 187.3hp @ the engine? Please...

Chip, Mike has mentioned my ignition advance is a bit 'funny' in places. Henk disagrees with this. What am I supposed to do. Mike/James have an interest in making sure their product upholds a reputation, Henk on the other hand doesn't. He does however, want me to have the best map possible as that's in his best interest.

Also, can assure you it's not my leads. Recently had a brand new set of leads and a new coil pack on my car.

I don't see why my results can't be blamed on the RS2. We KNOW there are other cars that had the manifold fitted and failed to make the results.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah I know it's big enough - that's why there are some people with cams and internals doing over 200bhp with standard throttle body - I was just saying the comparison of an RS2 is basically the same as ITB's with an airbox is not entirely true - ITB's have far more potential

You do realise that once the throttle is fully open that its going to make no difference wether it was one throttle in the intake to the airbox or 4 throttles on the way out, or for that matter both?!

Why do you think it makes any difference?

You have 4 small holes, and 1 larger hole in both cases, makes no difference which of those holes happen to have a slim bit of metal sat sideways in the middle of them!

 

[Russ_16v]

Just to clarify, Powerstations rollers are well known to be a long way off with flywheel - wheel hp correction

 

[Nick172Cup]

Yeah I know it's big enough - that's why there are some people with cams and internals doing over 200bhp with standard throttle body - I was just saying the comparison of an RS2 is basically the same as ITB's with an airbox is not entirely true - ITB's have far more potential

As you say the issue with the RS2 is it is compromised by having to fit around the slam panel. The xtra one I saw that had a bigger plenum looked better but I think only one was made

The RS-2 was never designed to rival ITB's which is what so many people fail to realise, indeed it was a compromised option which was primarily designed to be user friendly with regards to being just bolted on and off the car without any other 'modifications' to the car like cutting wiring looms etc. The figures dont look to be much, however all the time people are chasing peak figures with cars I feel this is the reason the RS-2 gets its hard time. Driving one I think would change peoples opinions but some people are obviously too far above this product to even at least try driving one.

I owned the RS-2 Xtra, the only difference between it and the standard RS-2 was the runnerlength. The plenum was no bigger in size and the runners were off equal size in diameter to the standard RS-2.

Would I have one again, yes I would. The problem is the odd couple of people that havent had good experiences with the product for various reasons (and not all down to JMS) will tarnish the reputation of a product that is loved by many.

Nick

 

[Jonny1*2]

You do realise that once the throttle is fully open that its going to make no difference wether it was one throttle in the intake to the airbox or 4 throttles on the way out, or for that matter both?!

Why do you think it makes any difference?

You have 4 small holes, and 1 larger hole in both cases, makes no difference which of those holes happen to have a slim bit of metal sat sideways in the middle of them!

Exactly mate, look at touring car inlets. How the inlets work with the exhaust make a big difference also.

 

[Cup_Phil]

You do realise that once the throttle is fully open that its going to make no difference wether it was one throttle in the intake to the airbox or 4 throttles on the way out, or for that matter both?!

Why do you think it makes any difference?

You have 4 small holes, and 1 larger hole in both cases, makes no difference which of those holes happen to have a slim bit of metal sat sideways in the middle of them![/QUOTE

I'm not arguing that 4 are better than 1 - I'm arguing that 4x48mm are better than one 60mm LOL
If the one single throttle had the same flow rate as the 4x48mm's then yeah - f**k all difference

But the RS2 isn't designed to take a bigger throttle body

Anyhoooo you get very defensive of certain setups and you have quite a massive "I'm right and everyone else in the world is wrong" attitude which I've noticed on several threads - so I'm ducking out of this one lol

 

[Cup_Phil]

The RS-2 was never designed to rival ITB's which is what so many people fail to realise, indeed it was a compromised option which was primarily designed to be user friendly with regards to being just bolted on and off the car without any other 'modifications' to the car like cutting wiring looms etc. The figures dont look to be much, however all the time people are chasing peak figures with cars I feel this is the reason the RS-2 gets its hard time. Driving one I think would change peoples opinions but some people are obviously too far above this product to even at least try driving one.

Frankly the first f**king sensible thing that's been posted on here
I haven't posted my rolling road results before the ITB's and I won't post my rolling road results after the ITB's - cos the only thing torque and bhp figures are good for is pub-bragging

If the car feels better and gets you down the road quicker than that's worth the money - f**k what the graphs say!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Virtually proving my point with that graph about you pommies and corrected flywheel power. 133 hp atw somehow translates into 187.3hp @ the engine? Please...

Irrelevant to the disucssion TBH when comparing 2 car on the same dyno, but I agree with you about some of the losses, total nonsense, and this is why it is SO pointless comparing cars from different dynos that dont work in the same way.

Chip, Mike has mentioned my ignition advance is a bit 'funny' in places. Henk disagrees with this. What am I supposed to do. Mike/James have an interest in making sure their product upholds a reputation, Henk on the other hand doesn't. He does however, want me to have the best map possible as that's in his best interest.

Well I have no interest other than being accurate, so when our car goes back on EXACTLY the same rollers that it was on a few weeks ago as a standard car and the only change since is fitting an RS2 and me mapping it, I think I will have a good basis for comment.

Also, can assure you it's not my leads. Recently had a brand new set of leads and a new coil pack on my car.

Was just one of hundreds of possible reasons an engine can be limited on flow, might be that you have an exhaust restriction or spark plugs or loads of other factors.

I don't see why my results can't be blamed on the RS2. We KNOW there are other cars that had the manifold fitted and failed to make the results.

Because the RS2 has proved on other cars it is perfectly capable of flowing the air, if your engine isnt making good use of that airflow, its not cause your rs2 flows less air than the one this thread about, its because your engine has some other problem, or your map does.

 

[Gaz.]

Why not post the graphs and ignore the figures, the graph isn't just for "pub-bragging", it tells a much bigger story.

 

[gti6steve]

Just to clarify, Powerstations rollers are well known to be a long way off with flywheel - wheel hp correction

b****cks ok the there correction factor is a bit strange but the fact is the outcome does add up to a decent figure
Dyno lottery or you could use ktech rollers which is way out

This was taken before I went to power station

 

[Cup_Phil]

Why not post the graphs and ignore the figures, the graph isn't just for "pub-bragging", it tells a much bigger story.

Why bother? I like how the car drives - the torque curve is healthy and at the renaultsport track days it's quicker than 90% of other clios out there
That's me happy

 

[DanielG]

Well I have no interest other than being accurate, so when our car goes back on EXACTLY the same rollers that it was on a few weeks ago as a standard car and the only change since is fitting an RS2 and me mapping it, I think I will have a good basis for comment.

Was just one of hundreds of possible reasons an engine can be limited on flow, might be that you have an exhaust restriction or spark plugs or loads of other factors.

Because the RS2 has proved on other cars it is perfectly capable of flowing the air, if your engine isnt making good use of that airflow, its not cause your rs2 flows less air than the one this thread about, its because your engine has some other problem, or your map does.

And I don't have a good basis for comment? I know what my car felt like the day before I put the RS2 on. 30s into my first drive I was already disappointed and that hasn't changed. Yes, the manifold feels awesome <3000rpm, but after that it just turns to s**t and is slower than a stock car.

I don't understand why you're trying to blame a problem with my car. I'm 110% certain my car is fine. This either leaves the manifold or the tune. Now who do I believe? Henk or James/Mike. Given I'm not the only person who's had rubbish results, I'm inclined to believe Henk.

This whole RS2 experience has been a sour one. Not only did I have to wait virtually 6 months to get the product, it came with bits missing. Only thing is, I do have to give my props to James for sorting it all out. Tom needs a good punch in the face TBH.

 

[gti6steve]

Why bother? I like how the car drives - the torque curve is healthy and at the renaultsport track days it's quicker than 90% of other clios out there
That's me happy

Exactly if your happy with the car figures don't matter

Dyno lottery

 

[Russ_16v]

One thing I will say, which is relevent over the whole F4R modifying thing, iv seen many F4R heads over the years and pretty much every one had different cut ports - some nice, some quite frankly shoddy - I have no idea how Renault did it, but there you go, I recall Fred and a few others noticing this too.

This could go some way in pointing towards some gain 'x' with cirtain parts, why others gain 'y'

Of course another issue comapring is most are done on different rollers - as well all know that is a mine field in itself - my itb'd Clio was 193bhp on RS tunings rollers, which I was plenty happy with as I know Pauls are well known for being non-bulls**t ones, though I know Powerstations ran my Mini years and years ago and it came back with 92bhp, where as on 2 other sets it ran 82 and 83 respectivly - not saying either are correct, more that there is always so much difference between rollers and cars, even though they are suppsoed to be the same

 

[Russ_16v]

b****cks ok the there correction factor is a bit strange but the fact is the outcome does add up to a decent figure
Dyno lottery or you could use ktech rollers which is way out

This was taken before I went to power station

Steve, just to add, it is always the atw figure that is down at powerstation - yours should be more along the lines of 140-145 bhp at the wheels

 

[Chip-mk1]

You do realise that once the throttle is fully open that its going to make no difference wether it was one throttle in the intake to the airbox or 4 throttles on the way out, or for that matter both?!

Why do you think it makes any difference?

You have 4 small holes, and 1 larger hole in both cases, makes no difference which of those holes happen to have a slim bit of metal sat sideways in the middle of them!

I'm not arguing that 4 are better than 1 - I'm arguing that 4x48mm are better than one 60mm LOL

Have you seen the size of AT power throttle plates, about 42mm*28mm IIRC, total area smaller than the standard throttle body.

And you are STILL missing the fact that 4*48mm of which only ONE is being breathed through at a time isnt bigger than 1 60mm throttle.

If the one single throttle had the same flow rate as the 4x48mm's then yeah - f**k all difference

They arent being breathed through at once, which bit of that dont you understand?
You are adding up 4 throttles, but its 1 throttle, then the valves on that cylinder shut and open on another so its that instead, its NOT 4 all flowing at once.

But the RS2 isn't designed to take a bigger throttle body

There is a VERY good reason for that, it wouldnt make anymore power if it had a bigger throttle body on the standard engine, as its already capable of flowing enough air.

Anyhoooo you get very defensive of certain setups and you have quite a massive "I'm right and everyone else in the world is wrong" attitude which I've noticed on several threads - so I'm ducking out of this one lol

Im defensive of anything that works, if someone had a post saying throttle bodies dont work because they have had bad results on them I would post EXACTLY the same sort of thing pointing out that they were wrong.

The reason I have an "I am right and you are wrong" attitude about this is that it is something I know a lot about and have lots of experience of where as you clearly dont understand it at all. I have run all sorts of engines over the year on both ITB and shared plenum setups and I know a great deal about how each works, so when someone like yourself who is stupid enough to think an engine is breathing in on all 4 throttles at once is posting utter nonsense its very difficult for me to not let on that I know for a fact that I know what im on about and you dont, as its hard to hide such obvious truth.

 

[gti6steve]

People can **** power station off all they want I've always used them for everything I've owned and so have a lot of other
people as I said its dyno lottery shame they can't map clios as I would use them each to there own I suppose

 

[Gaz.]

Why bother? I like how the car drives - the torque curve is healthy and at the renaultsport track days it's quicker than 90% of other clios out there
That's me happy

Because other people may want to see how the engine reacts to such modifications e.g. any flatspots, where the peaks have moved to etc.

 

[Russ_16v]

People can **** power station off all they want I've always used them for everything I've owned and so have a lot of other
people as I said its dyno lottery shame they can't map clios as I would use them each to there own I suppose

I didn't mean any slagging off, if thats how it came across, more just trying to say their rollers have always read low on atw results

 

[Chip-mk1]

And I don't have a good basis for comment? I know what my car felt like the day before I put the RS2 on. 30s into my first drive I was already disappointed and that hasn't changed. Yes, the manifold feels awesome <3000rpm, but after that it just turns to s**t and is slower than a stock car.

I don't understand why you're trying to blame a problem with my car. I'm 110% certain my car is fine. This either leaves the manifold or the tune. Now who do I believe? Henk or James/Mike. Given I'm not the only person who's had rubbish results, I'm inclined to believe Henk.

Why do you think others are managing to get good results on this setup if the setup itself has a problem?

Unless there is an actual fault with yours like one of the holes in the base manifold isnt opened up properly, or the throttle is misaligned on the plenum, it wont be the rs2 at fault, its most likely that it is your map or a limitation on your engine/exhaust system/electrical system etc.

This whole RS2 experience has been a sour one. Not only did I have to wait virtually 6 months to get the product, it came with bits missing. Only thing is, I do have to give my props to James for sorting it all out. Tom needs a good punch in the face TBH.

Cant comment on customer service other than it was good for me.
Im only hear to discuss the dynamics of airflow and how engines make power and mapping and those sort of things which I know a lot about, not to discuss customer service from a company I have only dealt with once and so have no real knowlege of. But from what I have heard your summary of Tom not being on the ball and James being very much so seems to be repeated a lot on here, and its James that I dealt with and all future customers will as he is now the only one dealing with these manifolds.

 

[Chip-mk1]

People can **** power station off all they want I've always used them for everything I've owned and so have a lot of other
people as I said its dyno lottery shame they can't map clios as I would use them each to there own I suppose

The way they display wheels and flywheel figures is clearly very flawed, my mates escort cosworth apparently lost 200bhp in the transmission according to them, LOL
Doesnt mean their rollers are not still a useful tool for tuning though, they are, but just dont take any notice of the transmission losses or start trying to compare to other rolling roads.

 

[gti6steve]

Each to there own at the end of the day we all have are favourites places to test are cars

 

[DanielG]

Why do you think others are managing to get good results on this setup if the setup itself has a problem?

Like I said - I know I'm not the first person to get poor results. I'm going to leave it at that. Arguing any further is of no use to anyone. I merely posted my results to show that no, not every RS2 car responds well.

It's either the manifold, or the map. Definitely not the engine. I'm more inclined to believe it's the manifold.

You will agree that it is claimed to have gains (or at least I've seen dyno sheets posted that would lead you to believe) without mapping? Yes? Ok. My car gained nothing.

Also, there would be no blockage in my exhaust as there's near enough nothing for it to be blocked in other than the cat. Rest is pretty much straight pipe

 

[gti6steve]

Back to the original topic rs2 now lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Like I said - I know I'm not the first person to get poor results. I'm going to leave it at that. Arguing any further is of no use to anyone. I merely posted my results to show that no, not every RS2 car responds well.

It's either the manifold, or the map. Definitely not the engine. I'm more inclined to believe it's the manifold.

If its the manifold, it will be something that visual inspection can reveal.
It could also be the instalation, injector not seating properly, throttle not aligned right, gasket not sealing, etc etc

LOTS of things could be wrong with your car currently, I just doubt that its the jenvey manifold not flowing properly, or the plenum not holding air, or the trumpets not working, those sort of things just dont generally go wrong, the laws of physics are pretty consistant with stuff like that, unless one or more components of your specific it has been badly manufactured or damaged.

You will agree that it is claimed to have gains (or at least I've seen dyno sheets posted that would lead you to believe) without mapping? Yes? Ok. My car gained nothing.

I dont think that has ever been claimed by James TBH, and if it has its a dangerous comment to make without first seeing the map on your car, it could be anything!

Also, there would be no blockage in my exhaust as there's near enough nothing for it to be blocked in other than the cat. Rest is pretty much straight pipe

And you think that cats cant be blocked?

 

[DanielG]

If its the manifold, it will be something that visual inspection can reveal.
It could also be the instalation, injector not seating properly, throttle not aligned right, gasket not sealing, etc etc

It's been installed 3 times, pretty sure I'm not a complete tw*t with a spanner. Throttle is definitely aligned right, always paid special attention to that (not that it really needs it tbh).

I dont think that has ever been claimed by James TBH, and if it has its a dangerous comment to make without first seeing the map on your car, it could be anything!

Preeety sure I remember reading claims that it did provide 'good gains on the stock map' (I found the car absolutely rubbish to drive on the stock map). MWM have seen the map on my car as it is now.

And you think that cats cant be blocked?

I never said they couldn't. But it's a cat that's been on there for less than 10,000km, chances are low.

This is going in circles. I'm out for now

 

[Chip-mk1]

It's been installed 3 times, pretty sure I'm not a complete tw*t with a spanner. Throttle is definitely aligned right, always paid special attention to that (not that it really needs it tbh).

Why do YOU think your engine is not working properly with the RS2 when its known that the design works well on other F4R engines DanielG?

Do you think its the plenum at fault?
The inlet?
The trumpets?

Just interested as to where you think the problem lies?

You seem very keen to dismiss every possibility that isnt the RS2, but dont seem to have any suggestion relating to the RS2 itself?

 

[Martin_172]

ive only briefly read though this but i cant understand how some people think the manifold is at fault when it works on some cars and not on others....

now unless the engineering tollerances are huge and one manifold is completely different to another (id bet £1000 on that not being the case!) then its GOT to be either mapping or another factor affecting it, be it another part or fitting.

 

[Cup_Phil]

The reason I have an "I am right and you are wrong" attitude about this is that it is something I know a lot about and have lots of experience of where as you clearly dont understand it at all. I have run all sorts of engines over the year on both ITB and shared plenum setups and I know a great deal about how each works, so when someone like yourself who is stupid enough to think an engine is breathing in on all 4 throttles at once is posting utter nonsense its very difficult for me to not let on that I know for a fact that I know what im on about and you dont, as its hard to hide such obvious truth.

Wow - from all the years of being on forums, and all the people I've met - you really are the most obnoxious c.unt ever. I'm glad you aren't trying to sell your services on here because although you have an undoubtedly large knowledge of engines and tuning I wouldn't give you a single penny EVER

I'm off now to go and ring BMW and let them know they're wasting their f**king time fitting ITB's to the M series as they could do the same thing with a cheap carbon box and a big single throttle body

 

[Jaff.]

Wow - from all the years of being on forums, and all the people I've met - you really are the most obnoxious c.unt ever. I'm glad you aren't trying to sell your services on here because although you have an undoubtedly large knowledge of engines and tuning I wouldn't give you a single penny EVER

I'm off now to go and ring BMW and let them know they're wasting their f**king time fitting ITB's to the M series as they could do the same thing with a cheap carbon box and a big single throttle body

bmw know that hence theyre going turbo

 

[aucky]

I'm off now to go and ring BMW and let them know they're wasting their f**king time fitting ITB's to the M series as they could do the same thing with a cheap carbon box and a big single throttle body

S2000 Clio setup was crap as well then?

 

[Cup_Phil]

LOOK I really can't be bothered to get into this

If one man want's to argue that a jenvey inlet manifold bolted to a carbon airbox with a throttle body stuck a foot away from the head - is EXACTLY the same as a proper ITB setup with the throttles positioned an inch and a half from the head that's fine

But I don't believe it
It's easy to say only one valve is open at once so you don't need a bigger intake - fair enough
But what about volumetric efficiency? Or pulse wave tuning? Or runner length?

I just don't believe that a carbon airbox designed on CAD to fit inside a clio engine bay with the standard throttle body in a place where the wiring will reach - gives the same advantages of a properly designed set of ITB's that you have to cut half the slam panel out to get the right runner length.

They aren't, at a technical design level, the same solution - and ITB's are clearly a better solution and don't cost any more

For me that's the end of the RS2 argument. I'm not saying they don't make good power, I'm not saying they're not a good idea (because keeping your fly by wire throttle and oem ecu is a lot nicer for most than chopping wiring out their engine bay) - I'm just saying THEY AREN'T THE SAME f**kING THING!

And if I'm wrong - and they are literally the same thing - then why is this thread boasting about a 190bhp on a standard engine, and matt@TDF regularly maps 200+bhp standard engines on ITBs?

 

[Cup_Phil]

S2000 Clio setup was crap as well then?

It was the best they could do while adhering to the S2000 homologation requirements

 

[aucky]

THEY AREN'T THE SAME f**kING THING!

Totally agree.

I will defend the RS2 to the hills, but it has never been claimed as being as good as ITBs. I'm not sure who is saying it is?
It offers most of the advantages of ITBs with none of the drawbacks. End of.

 

[Martin_172]

It offers most of the advantages of ITBs with none of the drawbacks. End of.

hit the nail on the head

 

[Owen]

Take a deep breath in. Hold it. And out again.

Let's try and stay calm gents and not refer to each other as charlie uniform november tangos.