182 Cup V Clio Williams

[Graham Gooch]

I still have some of the old vids!

got some of it chasing 2 live round Oulton with the whining dog box... love the noise of those things. iirc he's after or got a Scooby now

I have most of them on my old laptop, although I can't find the power adaptor for it and the batterys fecked

I even have his 0-100 mph in his williams LOL.

Used to look forward to Sunday evening on here and all the York Times would get posted up then argued to feck lol, normally by me lol.

 

[Anonymous]

I still have some of the old vids!

got some of it chasing 2 live round Oulton with the whining dog box... love the noise of those things. iirc he's after or got a Scooby now

I have most of them on my old laptop, although I can't find the power adaptor for it and the batterys fecked

I even have his 0-100 mph in his williams LOL.

Used to look forward to Sunday evening on here and all the York Times would get posted up then argued to feck lol, normally by me lol.

The good ol days

 

[Graham Gooch]

Ah the old you Northerners and your downhill York Strip versus the Pod Uphill.

LOL classic.

 

[TheJesus]

great stuff mate, look forward to it, wonder which car you'll turn up in with all those lovely back roads? lol

... and guys, it's bloody Crail that's downhill, dont you go off the end of a cliff at the 1/8th mile so you can reacch terminal velocity?

 

[Darren S]

I had one for almost 4 years, it cost me the best part of £20k in that time (which I have only just now recovered from!), but all in all was the best car I have owned. Something about the Williams that you dont get in a newer Clio is that sense of occasion. Everytime you start the car it feels special and people that haven't owned one will find this difficult to appreciate or understand.
I own a Mk2 Ph1 now which is apparently more raw and direct than the later 172's and 182's, yet compared to the Williams it falls WELL short. Fun wise it doesn't compare. You tackle a B road in a Williams with it's forgiving nature and can get it bent all out of shape and it comunicates everything to the driver so well that even a muppet like me can get get out of jail. No ABS etc, yet fewer seem to be crashed than a Cup which can only be down to the far superior and more composed handling. It's not a nervous drive, it takes everything in it's stride and is simply the best car I have ever owned, even despite the fact it was a bottomless pit where money is concerned.

For pace people on here say the 182's are quicker etc, yet most have never seen or even driven one tbh. A good engined one is easily as quick if not quicker as has been shown to be the case time and time again in the real world. Forget the magazines, drive a well owned one that gets regular use and has a strong engine and you'll be amazed. The power delivery is like an 8v car at the lower RPM range and the whole car just feels so well balanced in everything it does, right down to the interior... which I greatly miss... those seats just cannot be beaten for comfort so I have found. Going in Bex' RSI a couple of weeks ago with the Willy interior in made me feel absolutely gutted that I now have to put up with the hard non suportive Mk2 Ph1 Ikea like interior.

Also, as a side not, if your 205gti was 160bhp and slower than your 182 which probably on makes around low to mid 170bhp, I dare say it wasn't running anywhere like that kind of power as realistically it would muller one.

^^^^ Great post, and that bit does make you think, doesn't it?

A Williams would always be one of those cars 'I'd like to own' and I still think they look the nutts now. What were the main factors to the Williams Money-Pit, m8?

D.

 

[Anonymous]

great stuff mate, look forward to it, wonder which car you'll turn up in with all those lovely back roads? lol

... and guys, it's bloody Crail that's downhill, dont you go off the end of a cliff at the 1/8th mile so you can reacch terminal velocity?

Well the Willy will hopefully have her H&R Coilies fitted by then if Andy gets the top hats manufactured for me:approve:

 

[Steve2004]

I had one for almost 4 years, it cost me the best part of £20k in that time (which I have only just now recovered from!), but all in all was the best car I have owned. Something about the Williams that you dont get in a newer Clio is that sense of occasion. Everytime you start the car it feels special and people that haven't owned one will find this difficult to appreciate or understand.
I own a Mk2 Ph1 now which is apparently more raw and direct than the later 172's and 182's, yet compared to the Williams it falls WELL short. Fun wise it doesn't compare. You tackle a B road in a Williams with it's forgiving nature and can get it bent all out of shape and it comunicates everything to the driver so well that even a muppet like me can get get out of jail. No ABS etc, yet fewer seem to be crashed than a Cup which can only be down to the far superior and more composed handling. It's not a nervous drive, it takes everything in it's stride and is simply the best car I have ever owned, even despite the fact it was a bottomless pit where money is concerned.

For pace people on here say the 182's are quicker etc, yet most have never seen or even driven one tbh. A good engined one is easily as quick if not quicker as has been shown to be the case time and time again in the real world. Forget the magazines, drive a well owned one that gets regular use and has a strong engine and you'll be amazed. The power delivery is like an 8v car at the lower RPM range and the whole car just feels so well balanced in everything it does, right down to the interior... which I greatly miss... those seats just cannot be beaten for comfort so I have found. Going in Bex' RSI a couple of weeks ago with the Willy interior in made me feel absolutely gutted that I now have to put up with the hard non suportive Mk2 Ph1 Ikea like interior.

Also, as a side not, if your 205gti was 160bhp and slower than your 182 which probably on makes around low to mid 170bhp, I dare say it wasn't running anywhere like that kind of power as realistically it would muller one.

^^^^ Great post, and that bit does make you think, doesn't it?


D.

I personally think it's down to kind of person who buys each car. Car enthusiast who knows he owns a rare car and treats it with the respect it deserves = Willy owner. Racer who often overstretches his limits = cup owner.

ABS isn't going to prevent you spinning your car into a hedge at 100mph, yet far fewer FFs end up this way compared to cups.

Or maybe my stereotyping is completely wrong. :rasp: :clown:

 

[Soulless]

ty for your help Detailer.

 

[TheJesus]

I had one for almost 4 years, it cost me the best part of £20k in that time (which I have only just now recovered from!), but all in all was the best car I have owned. Something about the Williams that you dont get in a newer Clio is that sense of occasion. Everytime you start the car it feels special and people that haven't owned one will find this difficult to appreciate or understand.
I own a Mk2 Ph1 now which is apparently more raw and direct than the later 172's and 182's, yet compared to the Williams it falls WELL short. Fun wise it doesn't compare. You tackle a B road in a Williams with it's forgiving nature and can get it bent all out of shape and it comunicates everything to the driver so well that even a muppet like me can get get out of jail. No ABS etc, yet fewer seem to be crashed than a Cup which can only be down to the far superior and more composed handling. It's not a nervous drive, it takes everything in it's stride and is simply the best car I have ever owned, even despite the fact it was a bottomless pit where money is concerned.

For pace people on here say the 182's are quicker etc, yet most have never seen or even driven one tbh. A good engined one is easily as quick if not quicker as has been shown to be the case time and time again in the real world. Forget the magazines, drive a well owned one that gets regular use and has a strong engine and you'll be amazed. The power delivery is like an 8v car at the lower RPM range and the whole car just feels so well balanced in everything it does, right down to the interior... which I greatly miss... those seats just cannot be beaten for comfort so I have found. Going in Bex' RSI a couple of weeks ago with the Willy interior in made me feel absolutely gutted that I now have to put up with the hard non suportive Mk2 Ph1 Ikea like interior.

Also, as a side not, if your 205gti was 160bhp and slower than your 182 which probably on makes around low to mid 170bhp, I dare say it wasn't running anywhere like that kind of power as realistically it would muller one.

^^^^ Great post, and that bit does make you think, doesn't it?

A Williams would always be one of those cars 'I'd like to own' and I still think they look the nutts now. What were the main factors to the Williams Money-Pit, m8?

D.

Darren, it was pretty much anything and everything that could go wrong did go wrong. The other thing was that I only replaced with new parts for 99% of things I replaced. Callipers and brakes I spent over £3k on in total, 2 live worked solely on the car towards the end and it was far less problematic, local garages ripped me off on labour because they had no idea what they were doing, it had the engine replaced, 3-4 gear boxes, callipers all replaced time and time again, suspension completely renewed and even then bits broke... it was almost like it was cursed!

As for the Cup thing like someone else has posted, the type of people that buy them could be a factor, but every WC meet and trackday etc I have been on the Williams lot do not hang about and I cant think of one person that doesn't give the car some stick tbh... I honestly think it's the fact that you can be a s**t driver like me, make some mistakes and the cars ability and chassis dynamics allows the driver to get away with it. Mk2's feel a lot more twitchy on the back end though, as well as more unstable under hard breaking.

Smokey, you'll have to take me out in it if it's done, just so I can tell the WC lot about them, as Avo are the most popular choice based on cost vs performance it seems.

 

[Jim_RT]

I must say, even though I am not a Williams owner, with my Valver I think I kind of understand what people are saying about the "feeling" you get from these cars. I love the Valver, will always spend the money fixing it before thinking.

My mother, bless her! keeps saying why not trade it in for a new car? To which my dad (took me by surprise), turned around, and simply said "no, he shouldn't... it's one of the funnest cars I've driven! And he's nearly 65!!". And he's right! I'm constantly smiling when driving it hard, which I think is what it would be like in the Williams. I've sat (not driven) in the 1*2's and just think... "hmmm, no thanks".

And the Williams and Valver seats are soooooo comfy. Anybody who's been in my car or these car's in general will comment on how supportive and comfy they are. Lovely!

I don't know how it manages to do that, but to drive a Williams must be awesome... and the Valver to a certain extent. So much fun!!

 

[CLIOWILLIAMS]

I drove a 320bhp jap import evo 5 the other day (1st time id been in an evo never mind driving 1), it felt so quick compared to the willy but as soon as i got back in the willy the first thing i noticed was how comfy my seats are in the williams and how much more composed the williams feels to drive.

Ive also been without the willy this week and been using a 1.6 16v escort for a while due to clutch cable/pedal problems until today when i got in the fixed willy and WOW i couldnt stop smiling, did not realise how much i missed it

 

[Chris n nic]

I still say someone at Citroen dropped in the 2.0 16v from the Xsara VTS in that!

That car was absurdly fast.

It was a one off... no other one has ever been close mod for mod... freakish really.

Soulless - Craggy's car ran a 14.3 or 14.4 with just an exhaust, decat, manifold and filter iirc and the silly thing was that 2 live off here used to run the same time in a Williams with an exhaust (which to this day still holds faster times than any Mk2 Clio mod for mod) and on the road would be side by side from 0-limiter in 5th... it was absurdly fast.

Almost all

Chris

 

[TheJesus]

well you still need to knock that 0.1 off that time Chris!

I think yours will EASILY crack a 13 now though!

We need a rematch at some point too

 

[Chris n nic]

Aye have to have a play again next time its out.....although mod for mod I don't think anyone has got a 14.1 with just exhaust/decat and chip without serious strippage.
TBH I'm not sure weather I'll do a 1/4 mile too soon tbh..It is so expensive and s**t at York nowadays that I think my time will be on the track from now on!

Chris

 

[Darren S]

^^^^ Great post, and that bit does make you think, doesn't it?

A Williams would always be one of those cars 'I'd like to own' and I still think they look the nutts now. What were the main factors to the Williams Money-Pit, m8?

D.

Darren, it was pretty much anything and everything that could go wrong did go wrong. The other thing was that I only replaced with new parts for 99% of things I replaced. Callipers and brakes I spent over £3k on in total, 2 live worked solely on the car towards the end and it was far less problematic, local garages ripped me off on labour because they had no idea what they were doing, it had the engine replaced, 3-4 gear boxes, callipers all replaced time and time again, suspension completely renewed and even then bits broke... it was almost like it was cursed!

As for the Cup thing like someone else has posted, the type of people that buy them could be a factor, but every WC meet and trackday etc I have been on the Williams lot do not hang about and I cant think of one person that doesn't give the car some stick tbh... I honestly think it's the fact that you can be a s**t driver like me, make some mistakes and the cars ability and chassis dynamics allows the driver to get away with it. Mk2's feel a lot more twitchy on the back end though, as well as more unstable under hard breaking.

Smokey, you'll have to take me out in it if it's done, just so I can tell the WC lot about them, as Avo are the most popular choice based on cost vs performance it seems.

Whoa - sounds like you had major issues with the calipers, then? Were they seizing or not working at all? 3-4 gearboxes?! No wonder it drank money!!!

D.

 

[Jamie]

Just to add my 2p worth, I have had mine for 2.5years and have covered 12k. In which, apart from servicing and some wear and tear items it hasnt cost me anything. I think i must have 'got a good one' in reliability temrs, although i still say Williams seem to have developed some what of a bad reputation needlessly. I often see many people commenting on expense to run, yet have had few have first hand experience.

In performance terms I have had a race with a couple of 182's and 172's in the time i have had mine - and with interior in its very close. I remember following cam in his 182 and in 2nd i seemed to lose a car length although 3rd seemed to pull it back slightly. Since stripping it i have had no races with Clio Sports although i did match a CTR in 4th from 80-100 where he slowed and backed off.

 

[Bl1ng]

Hi guys,

I know I am resurrecting an old thread but in my research on 172/182 cars I have started thinking about a Williams.

I always liked them and quite fancy one now.

I had a couple of questions:

- Can a Williams still be used as an everyday car given their age, assuming it is looked after or is a 172/182 a better bet ?
- I understand there were trim changes such as sunroof etc, but is there any difference in the handling, dynamics, mechanics etc between the 1, 2 and 3
- Is one more desireable than the other i.e. W1, W2 or W3 ?

Thanks for your help

 

[Chip-mk1]

182 is the far better car in every way except for that special feeling the older ones have.

But yes you can definately use a williams daily if you find one thats not rotten, thats about the only thing that matters really, everything else is trivial to fix.

 

[Jamie]

Most desirable are be the Williams 1, because of; the plaque, non-sunroof, Williams blue colour, original phase 1 trim. However, as there are so few about now, if you were buying, just get the best you can. Further threads are available to understand differences between each.

Probably could be used as a daily runner – however they are quite raw and upon purchase would likely need to fix a few niggles. Unless it has had a full restoration it will likely ‘feel’ tried to drive, compared to newer cars/172/182.

I wouldn’t like to use mine as a daily due to rust – mine has been dry stored and not seen the wet for a few years, can’t be bothered with having to get the arches cut and welded again.

172/182 likely be the better, newer car – performance wise, so long as neither is knackered there isn’t a great deal of difference in acceleration or handling. 172/82 are a lot safer though, older mark 1’s unless caged may come off badly in an accident.

To me, they are special cars though, lovely to look at and great experience to drive. Really enjoy owning it, even if I drive it infrequently.

 

[Bl1ng]

Thanks for the quick feedback.

It sounds like if I found a decent Williams that was rust free, driving it as an everyday car would invite rot problems - is that the main reason why it wouldn't be suitable as an everyday car ?

I thought they benefited, mechanically at least, from being driven regularly

 

[Chip-mk1]

They have very comfy seats, are ok on fuel, pleasant to drive.

Rot is about the only downside really. (and lack of aircon)

A valver would be far cheaper and in terms of day to day driving is basically identical.

 

[Harbinger]

Not really, you can get them cleaned and undersealed after Purchase, you'll just have to make sure it is properly rust free, no hidden nasties lurking underneath, so a good light and a way of getting under and inside car would be needed.

 

[Bl1ng]

Hmm, definitely something to think about.

Drive a classic, iconic car with little depreciation (Williams) Vs a more modern but still fun car (172/182)

 

[Chip-mk1]

The mk2 are just as fun to drive really, not that any of us mk1 fans will admit it

 

[plymcl172]

Go with the 1*2 it cheaper and a much nicer place to be in than an old feel in the mk1

The shape of the mk1 has got out of date very quickly and don't even mention the rusty arches...

 

[cat171]

I'd buy a 172 or a 182, mainly because there are so many to choose from so you can find the best for your budget.

As much as I still like a Williams I'd not be paying the prices they go for, especially as a daily driver, but if it were a car that only came out a few times a year then I'd go for a mint Williams.

 

[bill]

Not trying to put down the Williams there.....l had a modded 205 gti (160bhp) and my 182 would easily beat it on a straight

lad conversion? and a williams would have a 160bhp 205 gti no problem, had both.

6 year old thread lol

 

[Bl1ng]

I quite like the idea of having a rarer car but the upkeep of a Williams when used as a daily does worry me a little.

I went and saw one today and the bodywork was fantastic, no rust on arches, tailgate etc.

Looked underneath (as much as I could), the sills seem fine but there were signs of rust on some parts, in particular within the engine bay.

The interior looked great and mechanically it seemed OK.

It would need some money spending to address the rust in the engine bay and then get it Waxoyled. Being 20 years older, I would expect the upkeep would be more than a 1*2 but might balance out with the lack of depreciation.

What do people think, would it be a wise buy that can be used everyday or am I fooling myself and it would be a money pit compared to a 1*2 ?

 

[Coops Mk1]

I've run several Williams' as dailys over the years but always been on the approach to kill them at the end so basically cost me nowt but servicing occasionally.

they don't fall aparts, they run fine if looked after and are no more a money pit than a 20 year old 182 will be when the time comes

 

[Bl1ng]

I've run several Williams' as dailys over the years but always been on the approach to kill them at the end so basically cost me nowt but servicing occasionally.

they don't fall aparts, they run fine if looked after and are no more a money pit than a 20 year old 182 will be when the time comes

Thanks Coops. At this point in time, given an 8 year old 1*2 or an 18 year old Williams, which would you run ?

I see you are no longer running a Williams but two (172 and 182) more modern clios so maybe that answers the above question.

 

[Coops Mk1]

I've had my time with the williams', had a few over the years and they were brilliant and I would consider one again as a daily. but not right now, too many other cars I want to try!

if however I hadn't run one before, i'd be on it! don't get me wrong it probably wont be cheap etc, but for the love of the experience, nothing in mark 2 flavour comes close. the mark 2 sports may be arguably the 'better' car but that's completely missing the point. a Williams has soul, nothing else I've owned gives the same feeling, they just feel special everytime you sit in them and drive them

 

[Chris Lewis]

I have a williams i use as a daily driver. They are mechanically very simple and so easy to fix. Parts are fairly cheap.

Body work is the only issue. If you want to run one of these, you need to get under it and remove all the rubber underseal from the seams and replace it with something more suitable. I melted waxoyl into the seams and them sealed it with a bitumen product. Only do the seams though. They rust from the underneath because the water gets under the rubbish rubber OE under body sealer and creeps along the seams.

Once you have done this, they dont rust any more than any modern car.

In terms of driving, if you like the feel of a car, rawness, vibration and soul, then they are light years ahead of the mk2 clios. Everyone looks at you when you drive it, people come up to you and ask about it. In traffic everyone looks over at it. It makes you the centre of attention, and even people in expensive cars costing 10 times as much have a sneaky look when you are driving past.

In terms of speed, on paper they are slower to 60 than the mk2s because they need 3 gear changes to get to 60. But in reality, a typical williams is easily as fast as the best mk2s in standard form in terms of straight line speed.

Where they perform better than the mk2s is on traction out of corners, over bumps and on corners where you need to feel the car moving (loose gravel and poor surfaces). As you would expect from a car designed and homologated specifically to win the french rally championship.

To summarise, if you a track car get a skyline, if you want a rally car get a williams. Dont buy a mk2 as they have a rubbish driving position and a stupid steering wheel.

 

[Chris Lewis]

I quite like the idea of having a rarer car but the upkeep of a Williams when used as a daily does worry me a little.

I went and saw one today and the bodywork was fantastic, no rust on arches, tailgate etc.

Looked underneath (as much as I could), the sills seem fine but there were signs of rust on some parts, in particular within the engine bay.

The interior looked great and mechanically it seemed OK.

It would need some money spending to address the rust in the engine bay and then get it Waxoyled. Being 20 years older, I would expect the upkeep would be more than a 1*2 but might balance out with the lack of depreciation.

What do people think, would it be a wise buy that can be used everyday or am I fooling myself and it would be a money pit compared to a 1*2 ?

Dremmel rotary tool copy - 30 quid
Can of waxoyl (better get the big one) - 30 quid off amazon
Can of waxoyl underbody sealant x 2 - 10 quid
Etch primer x 2 - 15 quid

Thats the rust dealt with. Now time to enjoy the car.

Dont bother with a 2 or 3, they dont give the same ownership experience as a 1.

 

[Bl1ng]

Thanks for the excellent summary Chris.

My heart is telling me a Williams but my head is saying a newer 1*2 would be a better overall ownership proposition.

Tough one as I don't want to spend £3k to £5k for an excellent one. Ideally I want to spend £2k with maybe a few hundred spare to spend on key things in the first 12 months.

Dremmel rotary tool copy - 30 quid
Can of waxoyl (better get the big one) - 30 quid off amazon
Can of waxoyl underbody sealant x 2 - 10 quid
Etch primer x 2 - 15 quid

Thats the rust dealt with. Now time to enjoy the car.

Yes, I think Waxoyling is definitely the way to go.

How do I deal with the current rust in the engine bay. The front chassis member looked quite rusty when I looked down into the front of the engine bay.

Also, although the body is excellent, I am not sure how much rust there is underneath without being able to jack it up.

Dont bother with a 2 or 3, they dont give the same ownership experience as a 1.

Why is that ? I was looking at a Williams 3. Aren't they the same car other than the numbered plaque in a 1 ?

Finally, the car I looked ta doesn't have any history to verify the mileage (other than the online MOT check which only goes back a few years).

Also, the car hasn't been taxed or driven in the last 24 months so there may be some re-commissioning funds required.

I think it will probably cost at least an extra £1k over a 1*2 to just get running reliably ie service, change all fluids, maybe replace perished rubbers and deal with the rust issue. That is not factoring any unforeseen major expenses such as a new gearbox.

The dilemma then becomes that you are looking at Clio Trophy territory !

 

[Harbinger]

Williams 1 will appreciate in value from now on, so rare for a clean one. think of that 182's have a very long time before and if they see a climb in value.

 

[Bl1ng]

Williams 1 will appreciate in value from now on, so rare for a clean one. think of that 182's have a very long time before and if they see a climb in value.

OK, I understand that. I thought Chris meant they were better in terms of dynamics etc

Saying that, Although the 1 may always be at the top end of Williams values, I would have though all (1,2 and 3) would appreciate as they are all rare-ish cars these days

 

[Chip-mk1]

Where they perform better than the mk2s is on traction out of corners, over bumps and on corners where you need to feel the car moving (loose gravel and poor surfaces).

Thats just not true at all IME, the best way to make a mk1 handle in fact is to put the 172 front end on it with its wider track and extra caster.

 

[Harbinger]

^ agreed, Can't see Renault making an RS replacement and not improving on a newer car? it's a slower car and track times are slower all over, just a different car all together, like people have said, it's all about if you want one or not, if just for performance you need a 172 Cup over any of them.

 

[Chris Lewis]

Thanks for the excellent summary Chris.

My heart is telling me a Williams but my head is saying a newer 1*2 would be a better overall ownership proposition.

Tough one as I don't want to spend £3k to £5k for an excellent one. Ideally I want to spend £2k with maybe a few hundred spare to spend on key things in the first 12 months.



Yes, I think Waxoyling is definitely the way to go.

How do I deal with the current rust in the engine bay. The front chassis member looked quite rusty when I looked down into the front of the engine bay.

Also, although the body is excellent, I am not sure how much rust there is underneath without being able to jack it up.



Why is that ? I was looking at a Williams 3. Aren't they the same car other than the numbered plaque in a 1 ?

Finally, the car I looked ta doesn't have any history to verify the mileage (other than the online MOT check which only goes back a few years).

Also, the car hasn't been taxed or driven in the last 24 months so there may be some re-commissioning funds required.

I think it will probably cost at least an extra £1k over a 1*2 to just get running reliably ie service, change all fluids, maybe replace perished rubbers and deal with the rust issue. That is not factoring any unforeseen major expenses such as a new gearbox.

The dilemma then becomes that you are looking at Clio Trophy territory !

The engine bay is an easy fix as it isnt lacquered. So a can of etch primer and some 449 in a rattle can and you can make it as new.

Get a second hand cross memeber, stick it in vinegar for 2 weeks, will come out as bare metal, prime, paint, and bolt on using new bolts.

Job done. Looks as good as factory.

 

[Chris Lewis]

^ agreed, Can't see Renault making an RS replacement and not improving on a newer car? it's a slower car and track times are slower all over, just a different car all together, like people have said, it's all about if you want one or not, if just for performance you need a 172 Cup over any of them.

So by your logic the new turbo car is better than all previous rs cars? What have you been smoking?