BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[Jonny1*2]

Head , cams and sump look ok from what I can see James. They look like catcams. Have a look on the shaft and there will be a number which is dotted on. This will tell you if you have the correct ones. It's a 6 digit number starting with 5 and ending on 421.
Did the valves not bend (Piccy from underneath of the head )? I'd keep the bits for spares as you never know what you might need

Couldn't see it on the iphone, but you have photo'd the numbers.lol.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Least the cams are ok, guess you'll be keeping them then. (If you've got any sense ) Weird how the bolts nowhere to be found. Maybe someone forgot their left loosey from their righty tighty

 

[Jonny1*2]

Unless the bolts came out of the casing, but it does seem strange that both were absent :S

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheers, looks like the rod cap failed, seems to be in two pieces with one part good nick and the other shagged and bent backwards.

I reckon the bolts came loose first and the rod cap bending was due to the fact we were doing best part of 8Krpm when it made contact as a result of the loose bolts coming out.

Mental how quick it all happened though, not like there was a load of noise first or anything, just a big bang and engine cutout, then a bit of a rattle (where all the bits no doubt got destroyed) till ash dipped the clutch.

 

[Silent_Scone]

You heard of ARP's doing that before Chip? Kind of defeats the object of having them uprated lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

You heard of ARP's doing that before Chip? Kind of defeats the object of having them uprated lol.

What undoing cause they werent torqued up properly which is what I firmly believe has happened here?
No I havent mate, but then I dont tend to deal with idiots.
If the bolts had snapped then half of them would still be in the rod, they havent failed they have undone IMHO

They just wouldnt fail at this level if correctly installed, Ive used ARP's at sustained 8500rpm and shorterm use well above that, they are EXCELLENT fasteners.

 

[Silent_Scone]

That's what I thought. Just as well I've got Frederick to tighten mine up, seeing as they were fitted in the same place.

Nothing else to say other than worrying. lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

ARP's are good, but clearly they are not idiotproof, FLOL

 

[mark123]

The ARP bolts are 3/8" AF socket, 12 point IIRC.

 

[domsclio182]

TDF not torquing bolts up correctly, sounds about right.

 

[Chip-mk1]

TDF not torquing bolts up correctly, sounds about right.

Only my opinion, I would be interested to hear TDF's take on it!

I nearly did it once myself, was round my old mans place building an engine and my mum shouted me for one of her epic roast dinners, I'd just wound the rod bolts in hand tight at the time, and I broke the golden rule and stopped partway through the job.

I came out, proceeded to fit the splash plate and sump and my Dad came out and said "make sure you put my torque wrench back where it belongs I dont want you getting my tools out of order" at which point I realised I hadnt used the torque wrench yet and quickly pulled it all apart again.

We're all human at the end of the day, maybe TDF made the mistake of answering the phone halfway through the build or something.

After my near-miss I just mentioned, NOTHING stops me mid engine build now unless I am at a very safe place to stop, golden rule for me is you never fit a bolt if you arent doing it up, otherwise it looks done when you come back to the job but isnt.

 

[domsclio182]

Just adds weight to my argument that they may have not torqued the bottom pulley on my cam belt correctly, seems bolts can come loose after a long period of time when not torqued correctly, even after plenty of track abuse ect. I suppose we will never know as it is very hard to prove.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Your situation is different though, you changed the requirements by adding a supercharger AFTER they did the bolt up, so bit different, although like you say it is of course possible they didnt do it properly, but I bet if there was a supercharger on there when they did it then they would have made sure it was extra tight as there would have been a reason to do so.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Wait wait wait wait wait - so you got a 215bhp rolling road graph from a car with the cams incorrectly timed on standard injectors?
Photoshop?

Rod bolts not tightened is f*cking shocking - I really don't know how TDF are still getting work after this

 

[Scrooge]

Ouch! I've made the mistake of stopping halfway through too chip. Only with a 1.8 306 engine, one of the headbolts has a washer to stop you cracking the block when torqueing it down, realised just in time thankfully!

Hope it gets back on track soon Ash

 

[domsclio182]

Ktec have fitted loads of s/c set ups on the standard pulley and not had any problems, but I only know what I am told, like I say very hard to prove.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ouch! I've made the mistake of stopping halfway through too chip. Only with a 1.8 306 engine, one of the headbolts has a washer to stop you cracking the block when torqueing it down, realised just in time thankfully!

Hope it gets back on track soon Ash

Everyone makes mistakes ultimately, we are all human.

My other big one along similar lines I did was about 10 years or so ago I built up a ported head for a 500bhp Vauxhall engine, but when doing so I didnt have any stem seals, so I installed the uprated valves and double springs etc anyway just to keep it all in one place as I knew I wouldnt be using the head for a good few months at least and didnt want to risk losing any of the bits or losing track of which valve was lapped into which seat etc
I then upped the spec a bit in the months that followed and decided to go for a bigger neil roper ported head instead, and solid lifters etc, so this head just sat on a shelf for a couple of years.
Then my mate needed a cylinder head for his 400bhp astra, so I sold him this one, completely forgetting about the no stem seals fitted, we put it on his car and it took us a while to work out why it smoked, OOPS!

These days if I ever do have to leave anything like that, I write post it notes so I dont forget something isnt quite finished like that.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Ktec have fitted loads of s/c set ups on the standard pulley and not had any problems, but I only know what I am told, like I say very hard to prove.

Not true. Everyone makes mistakes, although some in this case are pretty unforgivable

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ktec have fitted loads of s/c set ups on the standard pulley and not had any problems, but I only know what I am told, like I say very hard to prove.

Guess all those people fitting megane pulleys are doing so just cause they think they smell nice?
Standard pulley isnt upto the job, some people get lucky, but its taking a chance.

 

[Dan519]

Wait wait wait wait wait - so you got a 215bhp rolling road graph from a car with the cams incorrectly timed on standard injectors?
Photoshop?

Rod bolts not tightened is f*cking shocking - I really don't know how TDF are still getting work after this

mate, I know someone that ran a standard 200sx on there and it made 300bhp. makeitupasyougoalong.com

 

[Cup_Phil]

Riiiiiiiiiiiight - customer service win!

 

[domsclio182]

Guess all those people fitting megane pulleys are doing so just cause they think they smell nice?
Standard pulley isnt upto the job, some people get lucky, but its taking a chance.

I am having a cherry one fitted, smells lovely lol

PS I am one of the unlucky ones.

 

[Silent_Scone]

mate, I know someone that ran a standard 200sx on there and it made 300bhp. makeitupasyougoalong.com

Most of the owners tend to do that anyway lol (not you x). It's not even that easy a number to get to on one

 

[bomber]

I am having a cherry one fitted, smells lovely lol

PS I am one of the unlucky ones.

I don't think TDF can be blamed for that one at all, it's been known for some time that the pulley needs a megane/keyed version to prevent this happening, RS and Ktec have had them slip in past times

Under no circumstances am I sticking up for TDF here and just throwing something into the mix, say they did torque them properly, fit them as per instruction but out of the thousands of bolts that ARP produce just this one was faulty. Highly unlikely, very strict procedures by ARP I'd imagine, but just saying...

As said, massively unlikely though

 

[Chip-mk1]

I don't think TDF can be blamed for that one at all, it's been known for some time that the pulley needs a megane/keyed version to prevent this happening, RS and Ktec have had them slip in past times

Under no circumstances am I sticking up for TDF here and just throwing something into the mix, say they did torque them properly, fit them as per instruction but out of the thousands of bolts that ARP produce just this one was faulty. Highly unlikely, very strict procedures by ARP I'd imagine, but just saying...

As said, massively unlikely though

Faulty in what way that would make it undo though?
Seems more likely if it was faulty it would snap?

Only thing I personally can think of that would cause it to undo is if it was done up with much under it than broke down over time, or if it wasnt dont up.

Really is impossible to be 100% sure now though of course.

 

[domsclio182]

I don't think TDF can be blamed for that one at all, it's been known for some time that the pulley needs a megane/keyed version to prevent this happening, RS and Ktec have had them slip in past times

Under no circumstances am I sticking up for TDF here and just throwing something into the mix, say they did torque them properly, fit them as per instruction but out of the thousands of bolts that ARP produce just this one was faulty. Highly unlikely, very strict procedures by ARP I'd imagine, but just saying...

As said, massively unlikely though

It seems rather strange that neither Ktec or RS tuning offer the meg pulley as part of the kits they fit, not saying it dosn't need doing but you would have thought they would say you will need to fit one and they don't. I spoke to RS tuning as well as Ktec when buying my kit and neither said anything about it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

It seems rather strange that neither Ktec or RS tuning offer the meg pulley as part of the kits they fit, not saying it dosn't need doing but you would have thought they would say you will need to fit one and they don't. I spoke to RS tuning as well as Ktec when buying my kit and neither said anything about it.

I guess they are trying to make their kit as simple to fit and as cheap to make as possible, rather than having ultimate reliability as the over riding factor. For moderate gains im sure most people will be ok without the keyed pulley.

 

[Silent_Scone]

If they're offering it as a drive in, drive out kinda deal, having to change the cambelt is kind of a ball ache lol. If you're having the conversion done you should at least do some digging and ask for it to be fitted if you're sensible anyway

 

[bomber]

I'm 90% sure RS will change it as a matter of course after one snapped on their roller if my mind serves me correctly.
Chip, would'nt I be correct in saying that even on a 330bhp SC install there is no more stress/force on the charger pulley than a 230bhp install as it's rpm regulated? Edit; of course it'll be under more stress, added increase in engine acceleration. Anyway, back on topic

Possibly ally swarf under the bolt head etc, or more likely it wasn't done up properly lol. Right mess of the block, holes still smaller than mine was though ;-)

 

[Silent_Scone]

Don't forget Gray's old car lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm 90% sure RS will change it as a matter of course after one snapped on their roller if my mind serves me correctly.
Chip, would'nt I be correct in saying that even on a 330bhp SC install there is no more stress/force on the charger pulley than a 230bhp install as it's rpm regulated? Edit; of course it'll be under more stress, added increase in engine acceleration. Anyway, back on topic

Not just the increased change in rpm either, its also that the increase in boost required for higher power levels means that the charger has to be turned harder by the belt and hence the belt by the pulley.

Possibly ally swarf under the bolt head etc, or more likely it wasn't done up properly lol. Right mess of the block, holes still smaller than mine was though ;-)

Yeah some contaminent between cap and bolts is a possiblity.

 

[Gray]

Don't forget Gray's old car lol

Hi.

I think the guy sitting at 154mph for a number of minutes killed it.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Faulty in what way that would make it undo though?
Seems more likely if it was faulty it would snap?

Granted, but as with anything man made there are manufacturing tolerances. In any batch run they would only test small volumes, so it's hard to tell. Maybe the bolts were too short or didn't have enough girth . Again, just playing devils advocate really (plus i've got some fitted, so hoping they are fine )

 

[Chip-mk1]

TBH if the bolts were too short, then thats the fault of the person installing them for not noticing that 2 were shorter than all the others.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Maybe, but would you notice a mm difference on bolts? might just be enough to reduce it's strength.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Maybe, but would you notice a mm difference on bolts? might just be enough to reduce it's strength.

No way would a bolt like that come undone just cause it was a mm shorter, would make no difference as there is way more thread than required anyway. You are barkin up wrong tree totally there IMHO.

 

[Jonny1*2]

only trying to point out that nothing is impossible. I'm not debating the service that James had was shocking.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Wouldn't even matter if they were shorter - if you talk to anyone that understands the way bolts work - 90% of the stress is taken on the first 3 or 4 threads

If the bolts come out - it wasn't torqued up properly - simple as
Just like everything else on the initial build of this car - no detail to attention at all. I think that's fairly obvious just looking at the wiring loom lol

 

[Dan519]

Maybe, but would you notice a mm difference on bolts? might just be enough to reduce it's strength.

a general engineering rule for bolts is that they need to go into a thread 1.25 times their diameter. There's a lot more thread than that, tiny differences in length will make no odds

 

[Chip-mk1]

only trying to point out that nothing is impossible. I'm not debating the service that James had was shocking.

Stupid statement, Lots of things are impossible.