EPAS on 172 Cup

[Chip-mk1]

There isnt a trivial way of doing it on a FF and maintaining the aircon, you have to make your own idler.

OR you can leave the pump in place but just loop it back to the header tank, so it pumps fluid but against no resistance, just like when the wheel is in a straight line, thats what I have done for now although will be making an idler later on.

 

[Carlv8415]

Just remove aircon, it's s**t and never hot enough to need it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just remove aircon, it's s**t and never hot enough to need it.

I disagree totally, I sit in a few trackday queues the summer at action days etc and its worth its wait in gold.

 

[Gaverick]

I'm wondering what the feasibility of this setup will be on a FF. 2 main questions for me.

1. Is there enough contact area with the water pump pulley?

2. Will the automatic tensioner be effective in this position?

 

[mikeh]

There isnt a trivial way of doing it on a FF and maintaining the aircon, you have to make your own idler.

OR you can leave the pump in place but just loop it back to the header tank, so it pumps fluid but against no resistance, just like when the wheel is in a straight line, thats what I have done for now although will be making an idler later on.

I'm planning on ditching the aircon, but only because the pump is knocking with the pulley clutch engaged.

I just didn't know if the actual alternator from an aircon car would work with the brackets described in this thread.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm wondering what the feasibility of this setup will be on a FF. 2 main questions for me.

1. Is there enough contact area with the water pump pulley?

2. Will the automatic tensioner be effective in this position?

Your water pump is turning backwards their mate

And if you go under the water pump still then the tensioner wouldnt have enough movement to tension properly IMHO, I looked at doing it that way (as in with the water pump turning the right way not how you have done it!) and decided it wasnt acceptable (although you may be happy with it when im not, so its not a definitive answer just my opinion)

 

[Carlv8415]

The Cup alternator is different to the FF one

 

[Gaverick]

Bugger! Not something I really want to take a risk with on my daily.

What about removing the PAS pump and tensioner and using the cup alternator setup. I'm guessing from looking at pictures of the cup setup the alternator position is altered to adjust tension?

 

[Carlv8415]

Cup setup with PAS and aircon delete

 

[Chip-mk1]

Bugger! Not something I really want to take a risk with on my daily.

What about removing the PAS pump and tensioner and using the cup alternator setup. I'm guessing from looking at pictures of the cup setup the alternator position is altered to adjust tension?

If you ditch the PAS and the Aircon then its not a problem at all to use the cup setup just with the PAS removed, that works fine and spins everything the correct way with enough purchase on the pulleys.

Edit: As per above picture

 

[Gaverick]

If you ditch the PAS and the Aircon then its not a problem at all to use the cup setup just with the PAS removed, that works fine and spins everything the correct way with enough purchase on the pulleys.

Edit: As per above picture

But I can't use the cup alternator with the aircon pump still there?

 

[Chip-mk1]

But I can't use the cup alternator with the aircon pump still there?

No as the cup doesnt have provision for an aircon pump.

Your options to retain aircon and use EPAS that I am aware of are:

1)
Questionable belt route with shorter belt and a tensioner not working how it should (ie just remove the epas and fit a shorter belt)

2)
Make your own tensioner to go here the PAS goes (pure do one but only a 4PK belt which cant be used with the aircon they say)

3)
Leave the pump in place but doing no work, just pumping in a circle, much like it does when driving in a straight line.


I have done 3, but will swap to 2 at some point in the future to clean the bay up a bit more and completely remove the fluid (although odds of a failure with no load are MUCH reduced of course)

 

[Chip-mk1]

oh, and 4:

Leave the pump on and run it dry, I know people with mk1s who have done that, but i wouldnt personally.

 

[Gaverick]

Thanks for all the options, certainly gives me some thinking to do. It might be getting hot in my Clio this summer!

If by looping the pump it stops the whining and reduces the chances of it seizing up I may go that route. What sort of pipework from the pump to the header are you running?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks for all the options, certainly gives me some thinking to do. It might be getting hot in my Clio this summer!

If by looping the pump it stops the whining and reduces the chances of it seizing up I may go that route. What sort of pipework from the pump to the header are you running?

I just cut and shut the high pressure line from the pump back into the pipe that goes to the header tank.
If your pump only whines when you turn the steering then it will stop that, but obviously if it is already badly worn its not going to guarentee it wont fail, but it WILL make it last longer.

 

[Gaverick]

Can the FF alternator be used with the Renault 5 alternator bracket or would I need a cup alternator too if removing the PAS and aircon pumps?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think you will need the cup one. Not tried with a ff one but seems unlikely it would work.

 

[Carlv8415]

The mounting points are in a different position on the Cup alternator. Think the FF and Cup alternator are different amp also

 

[mikeh]

Can anyone confirm how much slower (if at all) the DCI rack is than standard cup rack?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Can anyone confirm how much slower (if at all) the DCI rack is than standard cup rack?

If you get the right rack, it will be 2.75 turns, exactly the same as the cup one.
If you get the wrong rack, it will be 3.25 turns.

 

[mikeh]

If you get the right rack, it will be 2.75 turns, exactly the same as the cup one.
If you get the wrong rack, it will be 3.25 turns.

Thanks.

How does one ensure they get the correct rack?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks.

How does one ensure they get the correct rack?

I did so by going to renparts and asking nicely if I could go out back and choose a rack based on condition and how many turns I could get on it with a 14mm spanner.

 

[mikeh]

Did you make a note of the part number by any chance?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Did you make a note of the part number by any chance?

Part number is in this thread from cup phil, and I also have already posted in here with a part number that was a wrong 3.25 turn rack, so between those I would think you everything you need.

 

[mikeh]

Spot on.

I did have a flick through the thread - I shall have to give it a proper read through now I know the information is there.

Thank you!

 

[Gaverick]

Managed to track down the elusive Volvo alternator brackets this week and they were delivered today. I asked that the 3 short bolts and 1 long bolt were included, but ended up with the whole shebang! I'm guessing I need a 75A cup alternator to go with these though?

 

[Carlv8415]

What model Volvo is it off ?

 

[Gaverick]

480 with 1.7 petrol engine.

 

[Gaverick]

I've now sourced all of the parts I believe I require to convert my 172 FF to EPAS. I've put my parts list below for anyone wanting to do the same. Unsure on belt length at present, I'm going to double check with string before buying.

EPAS Conversion Parts List - Clio 172 FF
Item	Part No.	Location	Postage	Price
8mm Ring Connectors 60A	200964454376	Ebay	£0.00	£4.69
Control Box	180984984338	Ebay	£4.99	£36.99
Cup/Kangoo Alternator	A11VI88 7701499959 LRB00400	Ebay	£0.00	£33.00
Wiring 4 AWG (4m / 20mm2)	360614658869	Ebay	£0.00	£23.96
Aux Belt (5pk 847?)	202660655	ECP	£0.00	£10.00
Alternator Brackets	7700718613 8200031832 7703101094 7703101076 x 3	Motorhog	£10.00	£25.00
DCi Steering Rack	7700437055	Renparts	£4.25	£25.00
X65 column with ECU & Power Plug	7700437048	Renparts	£4.25	£75.00
			Total	£257.13

 

[Chip-mk1]

Good details

 

[Gaverick]

Stated fitting today, got the old rack out without dropping the subframe. I was on with swapping the track rods when I noticed the manual rack was cracked. I chopped the lines on the PAS rack so I've had to put it on the car with a jubilee clip tight keeping it together. Hopefully this will be OK until I can get a replacement. Column, alternator setup and wiring to do tomorrow.

 

[Gaverick]

Completed the conversion on Sunday night. All went well and it worked first time. It's amazing just how much stuff comes out of the engine bay when doing this conversion on a FF. The benefits of being able to change a whole steering rack in 30 minutes, 5 minute aux belt changes, cheaper cam belt changes, weight saving, no PAS whine, adjustable steering assistance and less drag on the aux drive (I swear it revs more freely now), all far outweigh loosing aircon.

A couple of points from the conversion.

- It's possible to remove the PAS rack with out touching the subframe. Cut the fluid lines (big snips or dremel), undo the column pinch bolt and remove totally, undo the 4 bolts holding the rack to the car (the passenger side top one will not come out due to hitting the underside, but this is used to fix the new rack so just pull it back temporarily. Take the track rod ends out of the hubs, remove the dogbone and gear linkage and pull the rack out the middle after sliding it over to the drivers side.

- The radio stalk has a black clip when looking down on it. Just push this in with a screwdriver and pull out, you can then unplug it from the connector.

- The aircon radiator can be removed without draining coolant and removing the radiator (the pure motorsport guide says you should do this).

- I found it quite easy to slide the rack in without splitting it, but I did have to remove the motor.

 

[Gaverick]

Fitted the replacement rack today and the steering is great, excellent service from Renparts in replacing the cracked rack, no questions asked and received Tuesday after emailing them on Saturday night. I love how easy it is to change the rack now.

Something I should have mentioned above, the 5pk847 belt works perfectly on a FF conversion, I had a 5pk838 on standby but it was too short.

 

[sprintcup]

Fitted the replacement rack today and the steering is great, excellent service from Renparts in replacing the cracked rack, no questions asked and received Tuesday after emailing them on Saturday night. I love how easy it is to change the rack now.

Something I should have mentioned above, the 5pk847 belt works perfectly on a FF conversion, I had a 5pk838 on standby but it was too short.

Great work ^^^^^ and a good thread by those that have done the leg work etc, could do with a mod trimming it down to get rid of the posts like this one I'm doing to keep it easier to follow:approve: Think I'll be going this route next season.

Regards Russ..........

 

[Gaverick]

I'm experiencing a knocking from the rack when the steering is under a lot of load i.e. maneuvering or turning sharply. At first I thought it was because the original rack I put in was cracked as the pictures above show so I put a replacement rack in. This was fine for about a week but has started to show the same problem. Is this because the 2nd hand racks I've tried are most likely high mileage? I've read that this can be a problem on non-sports.

I have a 2nd hand power steering rack, I'm thinking of draining the fluid from it and capping the ports. I can't seem to find a new DCi rack for sale.

 

[Chip-mk1]

That sort of noise does sound like a rack problem.

 

[Gaverick]

Well after loads of faffing on with 2 dci racks and ending up with the same cracking/knocking problem on both I refitted an original power steering rack with the ports looped and new rack bushes today.

So far so good, the steering feel and weight is excellent and no issues with self centering. I don't know if this is because my other 2 racks were past it when I fitted them but if anyone is wanting to do the EPAS conversion and use their original rack I would certainly recommend it.

I just need to monitor this rack now and hope the cracking noises don't come back.

 

[Gaverick]

After 10 days of hard driving I'm pretty confident in saying the looped and blanked power steering rack is the better option. It has a much better feel to it and feels a lot stronger, there have been no funny noises or cracks from it. The only real downside seems to be you loose the solid mounting and have to go back to the bushes, but with new bushes in this should be good for a long time now.

I'm not sure if I was unlucky and got 2 dodgy DCi racks or if the DCi rack just isn't up to the job with sticky tyres and my driving style. Either way I can't see a reason to use one over the standard rack anymore.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Less weight and solid mounts are the reasons I personally feel the DCi rack is superior, but both should work if in good condition.

 

[Gaverick]

Yes I think you are right, but after 2 bad experiences with the DCi rack I was reluctant to splash out on a new one after pricing one up with Renault Wolverhampton!