No car
If the Nigerian driving license is included, no doubt id pay for the package
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Soon to be turboed
- Thread starter Michael Woodford MST
- Start date
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- turbo
I know Chip, i'm just wondering to know how much boost would be able to run without knocking
No worries there mate, could put another bar in without it knocking if remapped accordingly, but the turbo wouldn't be able to maintain it at high rpm as it's not big enough and I'd wager the rods and pistons would have problems.
It's not knock limited at all, nowhere near.
Hello Mar_k, small world.
It really is a cracking little car, I was quite impressed when we were mapping it at how well it puts the power down still.
Awesome chassis the 172, so its great to have enough power to exploit that properly at last
Can see quite a few people following suit if they have a go in it, as I said before, its very addictive when it comes on boost!
Last night they put it up against an M3 Evo to test it and the clio was noticably quicker, and they also tried with a 310bhp RS Focus and that was pretty much neck and neck.
That was running a tiny bit more boost than on the graph I posted.
I think that on track, especially in the wet, its going to need a diff though realistically.
It really is a cracking little car, I was quite impressed when we were mapping it at how well it puts the power down still.
Awesome chassis the 172, so its great to have enough power to exploit that properly at last
Can see quite a few people following suit if they have a go in it, as I said before, its very addictive when it comes on boost!
Last night they put it up against an M3 Evo to test it and the clio was noticably quicker, and they also tried with a 310bhp RS Focus and that was pretty much neck and neck.
That was running a tiny bit more boost than on the graph I posted.
I think that on track, especially in the wet, its going to need a diff though realistically.
The turbo is a hybrid turbo MWM normally would use for a focus RS, and its good for around 320bhp, but there are a lot of similar options that could be used too but if wanting more than that then a different manifold would be advisable as well really as the cast item isnt perfect for high flow applications.
With a set of forged rods and pistons, the engine itself would work very well with a lot more boost through it, it is an engine that responds well to boost.
With a set of forged rods and pistons, the engine itself would work very well with a lot more boost through it, it is an engine that responds well to boost.
Im sure Jack or Mike will be online at some point to comment further, but based on my limited involvement in this project (I just assisted with some of the mapping) I believe that they want to get a lot more miles onto Jack's car first and find out if any issues arise.
So he's just going to be generally abusing it on the road and doing some trackdays etc to make sure that everything stays in one piece, but they have no reason to believe it wont at this stage with a few K done so far since the conversion.
Always hard to guage what is acceptable tolerance to consider for a secondhand engine though of course, if they were building a new engine as well it would be easy for them to know it would be reliable.
Any customer having a conversion is going to have to be aware that you cant just add 60% more power to a 100K mile old engine and then be surprised if a failure occurs, as it could already have underlying faults that there is no way of knowing about without a complete stripdown and rebuild, just like many cars on throttle bodies or cams then end up with engines going wrong, and yet some others with the same conversions go on seemingly forever.
Obviously getting the mapping right is one key aspect, which is why a drive in and drive out setup is more likely to be on offer than a kit people can fit and setup themselves.
So he's just going to be generally abusing it on the road and doing some trackdays etc to make sure that everything stays in one piece, but they have no reason to believe it wont at this stage with a few K done so far since the conversion.
Always hard to guage what is acceptable tolerance to consider for a secondhand engine though of course, if they were building a new engine as well it would be easy for them to know it would be reliable.
Any customer having a conversion is going to have to be aware that you cant just add 60% more power to a 100K mile old engine and then be surprised if a failure occurs, as it could already have underlying faults that there is no way of knowing about without a complete stripdown and rebuild, just like many cars on throttle bodies or cams then end up with engines going wrong, and yet some others with the same conversions go on seemingly forever.
Obviously getting the mapping right is one key aspect, which is why a drive in and drive out setup is more likely to be on offer than a kit people can fit and setup themselves.
Chip if someone wanted to build one of these using forged pistons and steel rods would you still need to use the 197 head or would they just use low comp pistons?
This whole project has got my mind in a spin, I really think its fantastic. Once the ford goggles are off these seems to be far better value for money
and as already stated a fantastic chassis to start with
This whole project has got my mind in a spin, I really think its fantastic. Once the ford goggles are off these seems to be far better value for money
and as already stated a fantastic chassis to start with
The 197 head is a good way of getting low compression on a standard bottom end and also a better flowing inlet manifold and better flowing inlet ports.
Its not required though, especially at this power level, a set of low comp pistons would achieve the same results, but they are looking to offer an affordable package to people and the moment you need to take the engine out and rebore it and fit new pistsons etc, it adds a couple of grand to the price if people are paying labour as well.
They noticed that the rods in the megane turbo are no better than the 172 ones, and the pistons are no better construction on them either, so they figured if they could decompress the engine properly (ie not thick head gaskets that ruin squish) it would mean that a 100K mile 172 engine is effectively just as capable of taking 260bhp as a 100K mile megane turbo one is.
If you were searching for 300bhp+ though, then forged internals are pretty much a requirement, the standard parts arent suitable at big power levels, but then the car doesnt really need that, this thing really is very quick as it is, chasing more power will make it quicker down a motorway but is unlikely to make it much quicker round a track if running road legal tyres etc, it does get to a point where more power doesnt really decrease lap times significantly any more one you get to a certain point, it becomes a case of massively diminishing returns once you start getting near to 300bhp.
Jack and Mike both have a background in ford turbos like yourself (you probably remember Mikes 300bhp connect van?), so its a case of applying that knowledge and experience to the clio instead as they are RS ford specialists as well as RS renault specialists, so its a pretty useful crossover on a turbo clio project.
As tutuur mentions, the gearbox is the weak link in the clio platform, he is developing a vw/audi box conversion which is one good option.
Clio turbos seem to have a bad rep on this forum from what I have seen, but I think its just because most of the ones people have tried to do before havent been decompressed enough for the boost they are running or havent been mapped properly, or a bit of both.
I think with a few good examples of it done well and a better box (+lsd preferably) on offer, it could be something that really catches on, as a clio 172 is just as capable of handling 260bhp through the chassis as a focus RS is etc.
PS
Last night we put a standard 172 in 3rd gear at about 6Krpm alongside Jack's car in 5th at 4K, both floored it at the same time with the standard 172 going up through the box keeping the engine on the boil at the top of the rev range, and jack just effortlessly letting the torque pull him along, he was quicker right from the word go and the faster they got the bigger the difference was, it really is a VERY easy car to drive quickly, anywhere from about 3K to the limiter it just pulls SO much better than the standard car.
It drives very much like a chipped mk1 focus RS really in terms of the power delivery, just smooth and drama free all the way up.
Last night we put a standard 172 in 3rd gear at about 6Krpm alongside Jack's car in 5th at 4K, both floored it at the same time with the standard 172 going up through the box keeping the engine on the boil at the top of the rev range, and jack just effortlessly letting the torque pull him along, he was quicker right from the word go and the faster they got the bigger the difference was, it really is a VERY easy car to drive quickly, anywhere from about 3K to the limiter it just pulls SO much better than the standard car.
It drives very much like a chipped mk1 focus RS really in terms of the power delivery, just smooth and drama free all the way up.
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
Very nice write-up chip!
Actually i'm not developing a box conversion but Scoff is!
I'm just one of the guys interested in it and willing to put effort in to get it all together and help others out.
Currently building a low-boost F7R on a budget to prove that can be done too. Going to be mapped by Henk so that won't be a problem!
The problem with most budget builds is they use an off the shelf chip (which cán be good) but not monitoring AFR's. Thats asking for melted pistons etc..
Actually i'm not developing a box conversion but Scoff is!
I'm just one of the guys interested in it and willing to put effort in to get it all together and help others out.
Currently building a low-boost F7R on a budget to prove that can be done too. Going to be mapped by Henk so that won't be a problem!
The problem with most budget builds is they use an off the shelf chip (which cán be good) but not monitoring AFR's. Thats asking for melted pistons etc..
good info chip, I want one even more now. yeah I remember Mikes connect. if it does drive anything like a chipped Focus Rs it will be incredible.
one thing that always suprised me about the FRS was how driveable it was. how smooth and how hard it pulled all the way to the limiter.
I remember being with Doug, aka mechanic28 in his saph, 380bhp and a mate in his Focus Rs which was about 320bhp.
from stand still and even rolling side by side at 60mph the focus was always way quicker, although the saph would catch it over a distance and once into the 3 figures.
there just wasnt any lag on the focus.
one thing that always suprised me about the FRS was how driveable it was. how smooth and how hard it pulled all the way to the limiter.
I remember being with Doug, aka mechanic28 in his saph, 380bhp and a mate in his Focus Rs which was about 320bhp.
from stand still and even rolling side by side at 60mph the focus was always way quicker, although the saph would catch it over a distance and once into the 3 figures.
there just wasnt any lag on the focus.
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Ah, apologies for confusion, I thought you were more involved than that.
The standard williams ecu is rubbish anyway, doesnt support wasted spark, doesnt offer boost control if on a turbo, cant run semi sequential fuelling, it really is very basic. I cant see any point in retaining it even on the stadard car, it was pretty much the first modification I did to my car to rip the ecu off and fit aftermarket so I could map it properly, then every time I have changed the engine spec since I have just given it a quick remap to suit.
I cant get my head around how anyone would want to keep evolving an engine on a clunky standard ecu that so few people can map and that offers such basic functionality anyway.
You're only talking 500 quid for cheap aftermarket, its a total no brainer!
Im sure Mike or Jack will take you out for a demo sometime mate
Yeah although I absolutely LOVE the feeling of the huge torque surge you get on a YB Cosworth engine when the lag is overcome, the reality is that they are very dated now and the modern stuff drives much better, especially in the context of FWD where power delivery is so important.
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
i understand what you mean chip but it only has to be mapped once, Henk has very much experience with these engines and management.
as i said it's on a budget so 500 quid would be 500 quid more than has to be spent....
still have my Gtt in the back of the shed which has a fully built forged F7R waiting to be mounted, that would be a different story
as i said it's on a budget so 500 quid would be 500 quid more than has to be spent....
still have my Gtt in the back of the shed which has a fully built forged F7R waiting to be mounted, that would be a different story
If you have access to someone who can properly map the standard management and you are only talking about a low boost conversion and trying to do it on a budget then fair enough, but I see people spending thousands on these engines who then try and get by on the standard management and an off the shelf chip, and half the time its not even one written for the exact spec they have, ie different turbo etc, on a speed/density based setup like the williams its absolutely vital it is mapped for YOUR engine when you turbo it.
Im sure you will be fine with Henk on the case.
Get it done.still have my Gtt in the back of the shed which has a fully built forged F7R waiting to be mounted, that would be a different story
Ph1 172
Now for sale - http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...lt-Sport-Clio-PH1-172-Turbo-258.6-bhp-245-ftb
Have a new project on the way
Have a new project on the way
Paul172sport
ClioSport Club Member
Sunflower Ph1
likewise, before the sale was the package finalised?
ph2 sport
very nice what a good read
Very well written I thought, lol
Just looked at it again, you wrote it then lol nice one.
172 Cup 181bp 165lbf
haha what makes you say that?
