172 Cup Turbo

[Laine_16v]

Thought i best post here

Had my cammed cup for a while and enjoyed it, had many different engines in the past with renaults, ITB's e.t.c but never had any boost, a turbo kit came up for sale on here so i bit the bullet, drove to Wales a couple of weeks ago and collected it.

Below is just a copy and paste of what i've written on other forums, but anything after it will be new, the aim is a Low Boost (8psi) built on a stock engine, then i may dabble with forged pistons later on in the year.

Anyway...

The stuff

ome new fittings arrived today, old water fittings vs new (old ones were hanging!!)

One of the banjo bolts is to long, they have sent me the wrong one, or it was from a dodgy batch im not sure but it runs out of thread inside the turbo so i've sent a snotty email to them to send me a new one that does fit!

00ST MAYTE!!! Im happy to report there is no damage at all to compressor or turbine fins, and there is very minimal play in the shaft (its a wet bearing turbo anyway so needs oil in it for 0 play), and there are no cracks in sight on the exhaust housing or around the wastegate port. But the proof will bei the pudduing when shes running. I have no idea what car this turbo is from originally.

Horrible actuator that is fit for the bin (very limp spring), the new one should arrive tommorow.

With the wastegate fully shut there is only a few mm's of thread on the actuator arm, epic fail

 

[Laine_16v]

New wastegate arrived, it doesnt fit lol, its about twice as big and fouls the compressor outlet hose, and the turnbuckle arm i have is an M6, the new actuator uses a 1/4" UNF thread ffs, spent hours on the net looking for a 1/4" UNF turnbuckle and eventually found one on the Forge Motorsport website so bought one of them. Also bought adaptor to space out the actuator to make it fit, f****ng hassle!

Took cams out last night, put standard cams bak in but got dark, will put the cambelt back on tonight and check the engine fires up OK, then ready to drop subframe tommorow to remove downpipe and manifold e.t.c alllll fun in the hood


Pictures of the FMIC fitted, this was a rather large pain in the arse to fit, burnt out numerous drill and griding bits but got there in the end.

FMIC studded and nutted ready for fitting.

Offering the intercooler up the the cross member to check for fitment, then crossmember marked for drilling.

Cracked on today while the sun was shining. First job to remove "acoustic valve" which seems to serve no purpose and certainly not needed in a turbo application, needs to be removed as its where the boost pipeing will run..

Test boost pipeing run its all seems to fit "OK" i need some other joiners and hose enlargers as this Ktec pipework was not designed to run with this universal intercooler

Main pipe runs down by the radistor and through a very small gap by the power steering pipe, thing im going to have to bend it slightly to give slightly more clearance.

Need some pipe to join the two up...

After this i got a bit bored and decided to remove the downpipe and manifold to trial fit the turbo, i've tried doing this before and failed miserably and knew the only way i would do it is to drop the rear of the subframe, actually didn't take long to do at all, gives MUCH better access to the springs and nuts.

Manifold and downpipe removed leaving a nice hole at the back of the bay for the turbo

Manifold was a bit of a c*nt to fit, you can't plonk it on and tighten all the nuts up as the lower nuts as access restricted, took a good 20 minutes to fit fiddling with a 10mm spanner at dodgy angles. THen fittiing the turbo to the manifold after it was fitted was even harder as i couldnt get it far enough back to clear the studding, got there in the end though by hoisintg the engine and dragging it as far forward as possible.

Old heat shield / material cut neatly away and will be replaced with nimbus to better protect the brake lines.

Actuator bracket actually touching the lines, and the actuator pressure nipple crushed straight into the bulk head and tore the cavuum hose off, clearly telling me it needs to be rotated 180 degrees

Tools

Cutting down the actuator bracket to make it a little slimmer and the finished product

THe downpipe was very easy fitment no issues there although the fire ring size is slightly different to that of the OE manifold so need to figure out the correct size for that.

My biggest concern was the turbo oil drain, i f****ng forgot the fact there is a driveshaft right at the back of the gearbox that blocks access completely. I have figure the only way round this would be to tap the sump near the crank pulley which i may end up doing. Andy @ Ktec adivsed me to use a FF 172/182 drivesahft as they are a different 2 piece shaft that reduces torque steer and gives better clearance, this is an option i will explore.


More updates continually through the week

 

[LewisTaylor]

Looks good, will keep an eye on this as i'll be doing a similar job soon (fitting a F4rT tho)

 

[dmallett]

This should be good! Explains why you sold the 438's also

What power shout it make?

 

[Laine_16v]

This should be good! Explains why you sold the 438's also

What power shout it make?

Indeed, the 438 cams are good, but if im honest i never made significant gains over the standard cams, made a gains of about 9bhp and 3ft lb's (with the addition of Ktecs induction kit to), the torque spread was nearly identical. Something strange with my engine in the first place. They also gained momentum upto 4k, and sat flat for 4k to 5k before picking up again, this always annoyed me as i caught myself between this point alot through corners and never liked it, but every engine reacts differently and i suspect other people may not have the same.

8psi low boost i would hope for 220bhp minimum. Ill get a second engine and built a low comp one later in the year

 

[mitch1503]

will be keeping an eye on this

 

[dmallett]

Indeed, the 438 cams are good, but if im honest i never made significant gains over the standard cams, made a gains of about 9bhp and 3ft lb's (with the addition of Ktecs induction kit to), the torque spread was nearly identical. Something strange with my engine in the first place. They also gained momentum upto 4k, and sat flat for 4k to 5k before picking up again, this always annoyed me as i caught myself between this point alot through corners and never liked it, but every engine reacts differently and i suspect other people may not have the same.

8psi low boost i would hope for 220bhp minimum. Ill get a second engine and built a low comp one later in the year

Should be pretty rapid! Car sounded weird before hand also.

Out of interest why didnt you leave the 438's in and turbo it? Or does it just not work lol

 

[pastieman]

I'll keep an eye on this me thinks might help with a couple of pointers if I come to going boost....

 

[Laine_16v]

Should be pretty rapid! Car sounded weird before hand also.

Out of interest why didnt you leave the 438's in and turbo it? Or does it just not work lol

Don't think they are boost orientated cams, and they would perform "uknown", i wanted to sell them as its nice to offset against the cost against the turbo parts

 

[Cw Tuning.]

following this nice work

 

[andywa]

Good work mate. This is going to be epic.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool stuff, should help solve the lag problems you were having

Im on the lookout for an equal length driveshaft setup for mine at the moment funnily enough.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Indeed, the 438 cams are good, but if im honest i never made significant gains over the standard cams, made a gains of about 9bhp and 3ft lb's (with the addition of Ktecs induction kit to), the torque spread was nearly identical. Something strange with my engine in the first place. They also gained momentum upto 4k, and sat flat for 4k to 5k before picking up again, this always annoyed me as i caught myself between this point alot through corners and never liked it

Thats why I so much prefer our RS2'd car to our cammed one, its the torque spread that makes it so easy to drive, doesnt matter where in the rev range you are when you come out of a bend, you still get fundamentally the same pull.
The standard gearbox is so spread apart that it really does make an RS2 car a lot nicer to drive than a cammed one, but thats all acedemic now anyway seeing as you have gone for the correct approach of adding some boost

You going to keep the standard management or go aftermarket?

 

[Laine_16v]

99% sure ill go for a GEN90.

I'll reserve further comments on the RS2 until someone lets me have a ride / drive of one

 

[Chris205]

The driveshafts for both listed above are different lengths to the standard cup ones mate.

 

[Chip-mk1]

The driveshafts for both listed above are different lengths to the standard cup ones mate.

If you have a list, can you post all the lengths, that will probably be useful to quite a few people.

I was thinking of wide tracking mine slightly more to enable me to use the longer shafts and just because I would like to gain some track anyway, so it will be interesting to see all the options on length, and also to know what other parts are different on each standard car to accommodate the changes?

Part numbers for them all (courtesy of Freb) are here if it helps:

phs 1 172

passenger 8200027881
driver 8200027842

172 cup

passenger 8200214563
driver 8200225212

phs 2 172

passenger 8200185499
driver 8200257767

phs 2 182 cup chassis

passenger 8200372167
driver 8200372166

phs 2 182 non cup

passenger 8200352043
driver 8200352042

trophy

same as 182 cup

 

[Cupman29]

I used a 182 cup drive shaft on my 172 cup to get over the issue of the oil return.

 

[Laine_16v]

Be my second option i think, im guessing 182 Cup driveshafts dont come up that frequently second hand, and i bet they are ££££££ from renault.

Chip in your experience what oil drain size do smaller turbos (like a T28!), need? My turbo appears to have a threaded hole for its drain, however i have no idea what thread that is. Instead i bolted this to it... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390420965034?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648

This gives me a known 1/4" NPT female thread to use. Also bought a meter of AN8 Aeroquip which fits the barb perfectly, however on the trial fit the barb pointing straight down did now allow the hose to flex comfortably to avoid the driveshaft.

Scratching my head at work i figured i need a 45 degree fitting and may aswell switch to the shiny blue "AN" fittings to match the hose. THe proposed route....

Obviously i couldnt get the angles right in photoshop but i cannot see any issue with tapping there, tapping at position 1 would mean the "lump" protruding from the block would be in the way but i could hacksaw that off without issue, else position 2 shouldnt be any problem either, both have a constant downhill route, and the swivel tails can be angled to suit aswell.

comments on the matter welcomed.

 

[Dan519]

I think that entry point into the sump is a bad idea as there is the oil pump drive sprocket and chain right behind there.

 

[Cupman29]

Got mine for £50 after putting up in the wanted section. Not too hard to find for me.

 

[Yellow Dave]

I'm amazed at the length from turbo to inlet, has anyone looked into shortening the run or is spool up not too bad.

I'm sure I've Seen universal IC's with one sided inlet / outlets like that used in the VAG IC

 

[Chip-mk1]

Normally around half an inch diameter on the return, and preferably entering above the oil level as its freer flowing than below, and avoid sharp angles bends.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm amazed at the length from turbo to inlet, has anyone looked into shortening the run or is spool up not too bad.

I'm sure I've Seen universal IC's with one sided inlet / outlets like that used in the VAG IC

I've experimented a lot with volumes between the turbo and the inlet and the effect is actually almost nil in my experience, very counter intuitive at first glance, but what seems to happen is that having a bigger volume to fill means less initial resistance so turbo speed increases slightly quicker at very beginning of spool which cancels out the fact it has to then fill a bigger volume, plus don't forget even a few litres of extra pipe work is actually only a few engine cycles extra worth of volume anyway and even at modest rpm that's a fraction of a second.

So I wouldn't worry about it too much if you have a foot or two of extra piping.

 

[scotty2hotty81]

This is the return ktec supply.

 

[Laine_16v]

Nice one scotty appreciate that, i have those same fittings but won't be using them. Have changed my order to -10AN as this seems the accepted "no hassle" drain size for a journal bearing turbo with an unrestricted feed.

Other random bits, recieved a nice sheet of Nimbus G2 heatshield material to fix to the bulkhead, some 10 to 12mm male joiners for the coolant supply to the turbo, some 51mm hose joiners for the boost pipes.

All coming together should have the entire kit bolted up in 2 weeks, still need to sort a decat out (if anyone knows of a cheap 172 decat let me know)

 

[Laine_16v]

Productive weekend

Turbo bolted to manifold, one of the bolts is a c*nt to do up, still not sure if its tight enough as the spanner simply wouldnt turn it anymore and there is literally the smallest window for access.

Downpipe bolted to turbo, again one of the bolts was a c*nt to do, same as above not to sure if its tight enough, chopped up a 13mm spanner to try and help but that didnt do much. Decat bolted to downpipe and then hooked up to the rest of the exhaust system. Just praying its leak free.

Final position for sump drain has been chosen, sump has been dropped ready to take it to a garage tommorow to weld the bung on.

Oil feed bolted on (again a c*nt due to access the mocal sandwich plate sits VERY close to it so had trouble with sockets, spanners e.t.c but got there in the end.

TO DO:

- Refit sump once its back and hook up the oil return.
- Make some pipework up from the air filter to the turbo (running out of spaces to fit silicon hoses now!)

Fire it up to do some simple oil and coolant leak checks, thats it! THen GEN90 and some mapping time.

All pictures to be uploaded once ive finished at the end of the day.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Good progress

 

[Laine_16v]

First job, the the downpipe needed a fire ring, its some stupid ass size, the stock 172 manifold one is too loose (they measure about 66mm ID), .2.5" gasket is about 3mm smaller so i bought one of those, but again that was slightly too loose and wouldnt stay on the downpipe so i wrapped the diameter with a bit of alluminium tape to help make it stay put.

Some random pictures of the boost pipework although i never took a picture of it fully completed for some reason, but its all good and neat and tidy

The turbo surgery table

I swapped out the original drain in favour of a larger 1/2" NPT based one which directly converts to a 10AN fitting.

Fitted, i'll be the first to admit the drain line route is'nt ideal, but it is downhill all the way and it WILL clear the driveshaft.

Proposed sump drill point

Next i moved onto the exhaust, i bought a decat the other day (absolute sacrilidge to run a turbocharged car and keep the cat covertor imo!)

The standard 172 spring and fixing kit doesn't fit at all so i improvised with some M10 studs and nut, kept the OE springs though.

The most bastardly awkward night to tighten, in the world, ever. In hind sight it would be a lot nice to fit it all with it outside the engine bay, but i wasnt ripping the engine out just to do that.

The beauty fully fitted

Sump removed and filled with oil to get an idea of the oil level within the sump

Drilled, ready to take to the garage round the corner for a spot of aluminium welding.

Oil feed fitted, very close to mocal plate!

Then the last task, how to route the induction into the turbo, fast running out of room but i've figured a route, will be time to order my 3rd batch of silicon hoses, will have spunked £150 on hoses and aluminium joiners alone i reckon

 

[Laine_16v]

Quick update nothing special.

Mr UPS man dropped me off some minty fresh pistons today, ill be putting these in another block in a few months time and cranking it to 300bhp

Picked up the sump from the garage round the corner who ally welded on the bung, they did a nice job.

FItted the sump with a new renault gasket, STILL not happy with the oil drain angles, starting to piss me off now as these fittings arent cheap

It
simple comes too far out of the turbo before turning 45 degrees, meaning its closer to the driveshaft before it even gets a chance to turn. Meaning about 80% of the oil drain is sitting close to horizontal which will probably back the oil up.

I have just ordered another fitting which should *finally* resolve all this touch wood.

Started to "final plumb" in the pipe work, i got my other silicon pipes today for the inlet into the turbo, the angle from the compressor inlet is quite tall (probably about 70 degrees), might be a bit restrictive im not sure.

I will replace the cheapie £10 air filter with a universal pipercross foam one next month

 

[Cupman29]

Relocate the battery and lie the ecu flat. Gives way more space for turbo inlet and filter.

Looking good though.

 

[Dave..]

Have I not heard about problems with things cracking because people don't run a flexi joint in the exhaust system?

 

[Cupman29]

Have I not heard about problems with things cracking because people don't run a flexi joint in the exhaust system?

Yes, you will need a flexible joint in the link pipe between your down pipe and your current exhaust.

 

[scotty2hotty81]

I personally have never had this problem, uprated engine mounts all round and standard sprung renault exhaust kit (as pictured) I bought dms's turbo Clio for parts and that didn't have a flexi.

 

[T.Trophy]

I've had loads of PMs from people who have had studs snapping, as Scotty says uprated mounts go along way to helping this but a flexi joint is the best idea. It also stops the exhaust bouncing around under each the car so much, anyone who's watched a clio 182 being launched will know what I mean about the exhaust bouncing.

 

[Laine_16v]

Erghhh i was hopeing that this problem wouldnt arise. i did test for "flexible'ness" off the car on the manfiold to decat has quite a bit of freedom. My mates Mk1 clio turbo used to snap the downpipe for fun and has been welded more times than ive had hot dinners but he has a side exit that is literally bolt mounted to the car with a very very stiff rubber mount (i think thats his problem).

I will see how it goes and if something gives way i will have a flexi section welded on.

 

[lindleyp]

Hi mate, Im building my own 172 cup turbo and im just wondering where and how you plumbed in and routed your water feed to the turbo?

You using the standard valeo clutch or going uprated as thats my next dilema as if i can save my self some ££££ i wont buy it.

Pete

 

[Laine_16v]

Hi mate, Im building my own 172 cup turbo and im just wondering where and how you plumbed in and routed your water feed to the turbo?

You using the standard valeo clutch or going uprated as thats my next dilema as if i can save my self some ££££ i wont buy it.

Pete

You can see in a few of the pics, the water feed comes out the top of the stat housing and goes into the top of the turbo, then a pipe comes out the bottom of the turbo and runs into the top pipe in the header tank.

Standard LUK clutch for 8psi, paddle (or organic? i dont know?) for high boost a bit later in the year

 

[Cupman29]

You can see in a few of the pics, the water feed comes out the top of the stat housing and goes into the top of the turbo, then a pipe comes out the bottom of the turbo and runs into the top pipe in the header tank.

Standard LUK clutch for 8psi, paddle (or organic? i dont know?) for high boost a bit later in the year

You have connected the turbo feed into the expansion loop to the header tank. This will not have enough flow to cool the turbo IMO.

Just take a feed from the heater matrix pipes.

 

[Laine_16v]

You have connected the turbo feed into the expansion loop to the header tank. This will not have enough flow to cool the turbo IMO.

Just take a feed from the heater matrix pipes.

Please explain why it won't have enough flow...

 

[lindleyp]

This was also my problem as I thought to opt for the same plumbing of water cooling for my turbo.

I think maybe cooling it from the inlet hose to the heater matrix by extending the inlet hose and letting it pass through the turbo first then into heater matrix as intended? Can somone confirm this?