BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[Cup_Phil]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Roof vent is on my list

You can buy the 197/200 cup racer one - but I've just seen the pics of the 2013 cup racer and it has a much slimmer almost flat roof scoop
Very tempted to see if I can buy one of those and mod it to fit my 172

 

[msa197]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I was just typing a response and then re-read your post, by vents you don’t mean window-sliders but actual vents that direct air where you want? - Good idea if so, I hadn't thought of that. I still have the electric windows in as polycarbs are on the expensive to-do list, I'm just removing the heater-matrix as its knackered and will remove the blower as well to tidy things up and remove some weight. A roof vent would be good to get some fresh air in at head level.

James removed the heater and is now thinking about putting one back in. Need some warm air to demist windscreen when raining etc.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

James has also removed the conrods from his engine LOL!

 

[Toastfrenzy]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Ooops!

 

[Fred@BTM]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Was going to happen at some point! POWER time!!

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Zoltan fix

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Nurburgring?

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

spa today

 

[Fred@BTM]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Spa, flat through Pouhon2 and kaboom!

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Ouch, Had his fun at least the last few days I bet.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

OUCH - time for a proper engine!

 

[IcemanUK]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

OUCH - time for a proper engine!

Indeed

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

I guess it was inevitable with the other bad luck he's had. Least he has a good go the last few days. Fred you already clearing space in the shop?

 

[Fred@BTM]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

well i kind of guessed it was going to go bang being the spec it was (stock rods etc) already ordered some bits for it as i'm doing 3 engines at the moment

 

[IcemanUK]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

well i kind of guessed it was going to go bang being the spec it was (stock rods etc) already ordered some bits for it as i'm doing 3 engines at the moment

Mines on stock rods but has'nt gone bang.

 

[EVOgone]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Mines on stock rods and has over 240hp just rebuilt after 3 year of competition trouble free.

 

[shiftspark]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

My money's on a rod bolt....

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Pretty sure it had ARP's in it

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

My guess:
It lost oil first (was loads of it covering the boot) prob past rings or from the very common failed standard piston ring lands, then lost pressure, then span a shell.
I found the hole in the block when we pulled off the track and they still towed it rather than lifting it even though we told them it had put a leg out of bed. Was surprised at that.

car was absolutely epic on the twisty downhill bits, was beating everything out with us on those bits, James was driving really well.

when I heard the bang I said its the box or a rod, gears still seemed to work so that's when I looked for the hole in the block to confirm it was a rod.

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Fiver on spun big end shell as the cause

Going to be hard to tell if he was flat out through pouhon tho.

Hard luck James, im sure you had some plans for it after your power week of trackage anyway.

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

£5 on there not being anyway to tell what went first as it will be such a mess.

Does it really matter?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Fiver on spun big end shell as the cause

Going to be hard to tell if he was flat out through pouhon tho.

Spun big end is always a symptom not a cause.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

£5 on there not being anyway to tell what went first as it will be such a mess.

Does it really matter?

Always interesting to see what fails on various engines of similar spec to know what to improve next


when it had lost some oil out the exhaust I guess the pickup went dry with that much camber and cornering g, then loss of pressure, then spun shell, then rod snapped.

 

[Jay Payne]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

my point is no way of knowing the exact cause. can see whats failed but thats not the full story

 

[MG cup]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Spun big end is always a symptom not a cause.

Fair comment, wrong wording.

Was you in the car Chip, what sort of time does a race ready clio do Spa in?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Yes I was in it when it happened. I saw smoke and wanted to pop bonnet and grab extinguisher, James had the more grown up attitude of get over the barrier to safety as a Lamborghini was spinning towards us on his oil, luckily it missed though. Lol.

Not sure on times, James has logger on the earlier laps but was still warming up then.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

well i kind of guessed it was going to go bang being the spec it was (stock rods etc) already ordered some bits for it as i'm doing 3 engines at the moment

Make that four please.

Can't believe your luck James! Onward and upward though as always lol.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Mines on stock rods but has'nt gone bang.

but what's it done? 2000miles? it will pop at some point, its motorsport! If you're building an engine for motorsport use you go nuts and bullet proof it as much as possible, we made stock rods last for 60K miles with 8krpm rev limit (stock engine), fancy engine cira 230bhp+ they were going strong at 5K miles until the valves went bye bye - point being you need to remove as many weak points as possible, what i was getting at was there's no point fitting fancy rods and pistons and then keeping stock valves, get what i mean?

cup racers ran stock rods (and still do) with no real issue apart from spinning bearings left right and centre LOL

 

[Dan519]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

My money's on the oil being massively fuel contaminated causing a chain reaction. Remembered a problem I saw before with a car that made a lot less power than expected, cat still in place but lambda shoved up the tailpipe for mapping, showed 12.9:1 until the cat came out, at which point it showed 9:1. I bet it was running RIIIIIIIIIIICH

 

[Kenny.s]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Sorry to hear this James.

As for the acutal cause of the failure, if it was indeed a spun bearing, you'll be able to tell, regardless of how much carnage has happened in there, it'll be a funky blue/purple colour

Has anyone properly logged oil pressure on these engines while being tracked? Nobody really seems to mention oil surge much if at all on these cars which either means it's not an issue or nobody has looked at it closely enough, I however would be very surprised if they dont suffer from it to some extent.

I'm sure most of you will be aware of the failure mode as a result of loss in oil pressure,
If you have a momentary loss or dip in oil pressure, most of the time, while it's far from ideal, most engines will cope with it, but if it happens frequently in a short space of time the shells start to get too hot, they expand meaning less clearance for oil to get in when the pressure comes back, if there's not sufficient time for the shell to cool before the next period of oil surge/starvation, bearing gets hotter and eventually nips onto the journal and game over.


Fred, when you say the current Cup racers spin bearings all the time, surely this has to be due to oil pressure issues?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

My money's on the oil being massively fuel contaminated causing a chain reaction. Remembered a problem I saw before with a car that made a lot less power than expected, cat still in place but lambda shoved up the tailpipe for mapping, showed 12.9:1 until the cat came out, at which point it showed 9:1. I bet it was running RIIIIIIIIIIICH

Was under the impression that it was on the rollers in the last few weeks and has no cat currently so it would seem unlikely that would be the case. Plus didn't smell of fuel and wasn't black smoking under hard acceleration.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

but what's it done? 2000miles? it will pop at some point, its motorsport! If you're building an engine for motorsport use you go nuts and bullet proof it as much as possible, we made stock rods last for 60K miles with 8krpm rev limit (stock engine), fancy engine cira 230bhp+ they were going strong at 5K miles until the valves went bye bye - point being you need to remove as many weak points as possible, what i was getting at was there's no point fitting fancy rods and pistons and then keeping stock valves, get what i mean?

cup racers ran stock rods (and still do) with no real issue apart from spinning bearings left right and centre LOL

The problems with stock rods are:
they aren't amazing to begin with.
the production tolerances aren't great so it's a lottery if you get good or bad.
you don't know their history and they fatigue.

So if the rules say you must run them then buy new and life then to a season is probably best bet, but if you are allowed to upgrade then its likely to be a lot cheaper in the long run if you do so.

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Fred do you remember when Mercedes sent an SLK to Brabus (was on Top Gear way back with a bright yellow interior that looked like Rupert the Bear's trousers) and they changed so many parts on the car they had to be listed as a manufacturer? That'll be what you'll have to do next. Having changed most of James's car and soon to be the engine BTM will now be a registered manufacturer for Clio's.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Could debate the reason till you're blue in the face TBH! Think it's pretty clear that it wasn't really a strong engine to start with lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Could debate the reason till you're blue in the face TBH! Think it's pretty clear that it wasn't really a strong engine to start with lol.

TBH with over 7800rpm and the sort of long amounts of time it was at high rpm at spa, I think it was a big ask considering the hammering it had already had.

Mind you, who is to say TDF actually correctly fitted ARPs when they said they did given their track record with this car? So that is another option of course, either incorrectly installed ARPs, or a set that were charged for and then forgotten to be fitted.

 

[pingpong]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Could debate the reason till you're blue in the face TBH! Think it's pretty clear that it wasn't really a strong engine to start with lol.

According to the start of the thread it clocked over 210hp / 180 ft/lbs when rebuilt - should it have made more in that spec?

...or a set that were charged for and then forgotten to be fitted.

TDF..? I was under the impression these guys are the peak of RS motorsport work in the UK - would they be capable of such a blunder!?

(I think I may not be reading between the lines correctly).

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

According to the start of the thread it clocked over 210hp / 180 ft/lbs when rebuilt - should it have made more in that spec?

Strong and powerful arent the same thing.
If you have a weak rod it will make the same power as a strong one, it just wont last as long.

That thing is more likely to have had 5 doors at the time it was dyno'd than to have 180ftlbs though anyway, that graph was clearly a load of nonsense.

 

[pingpong]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

Strong and powerful arent the same thing.
If you have a weak rod it will make the same power as a strong one, it just wont last as long.

That is a good point, I did not look at it that way.

That thing is more likely to have had 5 doors at the time it was dyno'd than to have 180ftlbs though anyway, that graph was clearly a load of nonsense.

I don't want to get into politics, but I really don't understand how the above is possible with TDFs current reputation, or even the builds problems generally?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

That is a good point, I did not look at it that way.



I don't want to get into politics, but I really don't understand how the above is possible with TDFs current reputation, or even the builds problems generally?

There is nowhere near enough cam advance for it to have made 180lbft, simple as that, any reading saying it was, was incorrect.

James drove my mrs rs2 car, and went out in porkies car, both them utter destroy his until about 6.5Krpm, it just does nothing much at all below that, and it would need to in order to make that much torque.

Im not suggesting I think it might not have had 180lbft, im telling you point blank that it absolutely did not.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Re: James/BigAsh 182 Race Car by TDF... It doesn't get much better than this! *Pic He

TBH with over 7800rpm and the sort of long amounts of time it was at high rpm at spa, I think it was a big ask considering the hammering it had already had.

Mind you, who is to say TDF actually correctly fitted ARPs when they said they did given their track record with this car? So that is another option of course, either incorrectly installed ARPs, or a set that were charged for and then forgotten to be fitted.

I was going to say that, but they fitted mine in April so I'd rather not tempt fate lol. I'm thinking of binning mine off and buying an Escort Cossy that's down the road from me. I need a change of scenery from all this death and destruction


Superflow are known to over-read anyway, but what I have noticed and will say is that the readout from their dyno has changed drastically in the last 14 months. Like to the extent it's pretty blatant. Not saying there is anything wrong with the actual map mind you, mine drives absoloutely perfect and pulls well, but just an observation.