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Clio 172/197 forged turbo engine build
SJM'd197'dBTM'd 182
Of course!
Just got my hands on some new alloys, and d2500 pads.
I have only just checked the dates, I finish college on that Friday, so need to work out how to get from Plymouth to Bedford, and get hold of my wheels, and see about swapping them over, without being to tired for some full on driving
Just got my hands on some new alloys, and d2500 pads.
I have only just checked the dates, I finish college on that Friday, so need to work out how to get from Plymouth to Bedford, and get hold of my wheels, and see about swapping them over, without being to tired for some full on driving
Coming on slowly but surely, its very much a background task that one.
Ive got the engine mounted in a mk1 bay now, and then the actual shell Im going to be using eventually im putting on the road with a williams engine in to shakedown the suspension and brakes and get the aftermarket management and dash working etc, plus get my mrs some seat time in it, then will swap the vtec engine in after that.
Of course!
Just got my hands on some new alloys, and d2500 pads.
I have only just checked the dates, I finish college on that Friday, so need to work out how to get from Plymouth to Bedford, and get hold of my wheels, and see about swapping them over, without being to tired for some full on driving
Bring them along mate, we'll have tools with us so can either do it friday night at the hotel (you staying same place as us? PM me if you need details) or first thing saturday morning once we know what the weather is doing.
Built the bottom end up today but unfortunately Lesley couldn't build the head up yesterday like she had planned as I didn't have any stem seals on the shelf when I thought I still had a set, forgot they got used on another engine I built. And we are still waiting for the gasket set for this engine to arrive.
Dan popped round as I was building it and I think he got a few photos as he hung around and let a hand.
Dan popped round as I was building it and I think he got a few photos as he hung around and let a hand.
A few pics I took.
Nice work guys
Thanks.
All went together fairly easy although one ring needed loads of filing as it was way too tight, was definitely the ring not the bore at fault as the bores were all within half a thou, but one ring was tight enough it could easily have caused a problem if I hadn't corrected it, scares me so many people just fit them without measuring!
not really a massive fan of wossner tbh but they are about the only people who do sensibly priced forged pistons for these engines so not a lot of choice.
Let her drive the Nova then
Nice work can't wait to see how this does! Ported the head or left it std?
can't wait to see how this does! Ported the head or left it std?Standard 197 head but the inlets are huge on it compared to a 172, Les has just finished building the head so I have taken a picture for you, I didnt have a standard 172 head lieing around to take a picture next to but I did have a Neil Roper ported one, so bare in mind that the 172 head in this picture is already bigger than standard and you will see just how massive the 197 inlet port really is!
The finish inside the Neil Roper 172 head though is perfection of course, rather than the rough machine finish they both are as standard:
Plus you can see where he has trimmed the guides back to further air flow by removing them as an obstruction.
I'd have preferred the Neil Roper 172 head given a straight choice, but it wouldnt match my 197 inlet manifold so I didnt have that option.
The finish inside the Neil Roper 172 head though is perfection of course, rather than the rough machine finish they both are as standard:
Plus you can see where he has trimmed the guides back to further air flow by removing them as an obstruction.
I'd have preferred the Neil Roper 172 head given a straight choice, but it wouldnt match my 197 inlet manifold so I didnt have that option.
In work we use cordless drills for that
Surely that roughness is going to reduce/interrupt airflow to an extent? Worth cleaning up or not much of a difference?
In work we use cordless drills for that
We always do it backwards and forward by hand, you end up grooving it too much using a drill IMHO, fine for some boggo road engine, but 90% of the engines we build are performance units.
Yes it will mean I need to run 0.1 psi more boost or whatever to get the same power, so no drama to me but it shows why its so worth doing on an N/A one of these engines if you are trying to tune it.
Neil Roper also in particular works the valve throat area to give a smooth transition from the port to the valve seat, subtley changing the actual angle the air comes in it at, just not worth the cash and the wait though for my particular application where I can already get the power I want without needing to do that though.
Yeah, I don't think grooving the valves matters much on a 79 litre engine!
To save me clogging up Dan's project thread ill reply here.
There is a rather large difference in size on them! My car has had the head ported on it by 519 when he owned it, on N/a im sure it makes a larger difference. You not doing anything with the 197 head?
There is a rather large difference in size on them! My car has had the head ported on it by 519 when he owned it, on N/a im sure it makes a larger difference. You not doing anything with the 197 head?
Not doing anything at all with it mate, I can already get more power than I want so there just isnt any point in me porting the head, this is only a quick rebuild with some forged bits to make it stronger, Im not looking for one single extra BHP that I didnt have originally.
Although that said I have just bought some 197 cams to make it hold on just a tiny bit better at the top end, but thats just basically to regain a little that I will lose from slightly lower compression ratio this time round.
Be careful with who you get to port heads, Neil Roper is the business, ex F1 including doing heads for Ayrton Senna no less, some random backstreet mechanic having a quick go with a die grinder doesnt always actually make things better, and its not as simple as bigger is better, very subtle shape changes in the ports are where the real gains are, more so than the change in finish even though thats much more obvious to look at it.
I have ported heads in the past and got reasonable gains out of it, but Im actually aware that Neil can do a better job than I can and because through some of the people I work alongside we get a lot of heads done by him I ended up getting good enough prices and quicker than normal turn arounds so that it really does make it not worth spending so much time just to do the job not quite as well myself, so if I was going to do anything with it then it would be to send it to him.
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I get you with that, all about reliability with this build. After being in a super charger clio running 250bhp i cant say a clio would really need much more power than that.
Presuming as the 197 cams are just a mild improvement on standard 172/182 cams they'll be fine for the turbo application?
What engine parts from the 197 are actually used on your car? its always been a car than interested me, I enquired about it when it was first for sale but missed it by a day! plus i have no real knowledge/experience of turbo cars so could've been costly for me.
I have only ever heard of good things of Neil Roper, but have heard he is pricey!
I will be timing the 197 cams in slightly different to how we do it on N/A 172 engines as I dont want as much overlap because it can lead to elevated EGT's which im keen to avoid given the exhaust manifold that I am using etc.
Previously the only 197 parts on my engine was the head itself, and it was using 172 cams (bear in mind Mike was only after 260bhp when he first built the car as to why he didnt do so then).
Neil isnt pricey at all IMHO for someone of that standard, the only thing to remember is that half the time you will end up needing things like valve guides and valve seats as well as the porting, which can instantly double your bill, but one of the people that I use for machine work is someone that Neil works very closely with anyway, so all those bits I get sorted prior to the head even ending up with Neil, so my bill from him is only for the actual porting work, where as if you are paying his hourly rate for him to do simple stuff like fitting valves and lapping them etc then that puts the cost up, where as I have always done that side of it myself (well until recently, my mrs now does all that instead which saves me a job although I sometimes give her a hand like I did with this head as it is marginally quicker with one person doing the spring compressor and one fitting the collets)
Previously the only 197 parts on my engine was the head itself, and it was using 172 cams (bear in mind Mike was only after 260bhp when he first built the car as to why he didnt do so then).
Neil isnt pricey at all IMHO for someone of that standard, the only thing to remember is that half the time you will end up needing things like valve guides and valve seats as well as the porting, which can instantly double your bill, but one of the people that I use for machine work is someone that Neil works very closely with anyway, so all those bits I get sorted prior to the head even ending up with Neil, so my bill from him is only for the actual porting work, where as if you are paying his hourly rate for him to do simple stuff like fitting valves and lapping them etc then that puts the cost up, where as I have always done that side of it myself (well until recently, my mrs now does all that instead which saves me a job although I sometimes give her a hand like I did with this head as it is marginally quicker with one person doing the spring compressor and one fitting the collets)
Wow I was always told the 197 inlets were much bigger but I didn't realise how much! Thanks for that Chip good to see
Clio 172
So Chip if I'm reading this right you can put the 197 head and inlet stright onto a 172 bottom end and due to the size of the ports enabling the engine to breath better will see power gains (although small if staying NA). What sort of gains would you see with cams on it? Any idea?
Any gains seen by the 197 inlet ports would be lost due to the lower compression.
You would want 197 pistons or aftermarket as well. The head slightly lowers the cr.
i would expect a set of 438 or similar and 197 pistons/head/inlet to do around 200 on the 172 dephasor and ecu etc (with a map of course)
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NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
You need to drill and tap the 197 head for the cambelt idler roller as well. The 197 doesn't have this.
MWM must have already done that on mine, so I wasnt aware of that, thanks for the info
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Yes mate, I already did that.
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
MWM must have already done that on mine, so I wasnt aware of that, thanks for the info
No worries, that's what the forums all about isn't it.
Also, if you know someone that's extremely capable with a tig welder, you can weld up a 172 inlet port and then effectively 'raise it' so it matches the 197 inlet ports...........granted though, it's a hell of a lot of work to do it!! Not so bad when one of your best mates is a welder by trade though. Lol
Trust me there's a lot of scope on these, especially seeing as 197 heads are hard to come by as well.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Getting there mate! Can't wait for Bedford.
Looking great Chip Can't wait to see this car after hearing so much about it!
Can't wait to see this car after hearing so much about it!Thanks for the offer gorms but me and danpl6 live near by each other so always help each other out if required plus my mrs is very handy with a set of spanners anyway, so we are pretty self sufficient.
Its more or less built up now as me and dan spent an hour or so this afternoon and bolted the head down while my mrs was washing his car and my daily driver, need to order some thrust washers though as somehow they seem to have been missed off my order, my fault I think as I don't think I asked Adam for them, have put the old ones back in for now while building the rest up though.
Head is bolted down, with the most mint set of 197 cams I've seen yet fitted (thanks to scoff who nicked them from a mega low miles 197 engine for me).
So basically all that's left to do on the core engine now is:
fit thrust washers.
fit sump.
Time Cambelt.
Annoyingly though I'm going to be waiting ages before we can refit it as I've got to get my crown wheel over to quaiffe to fit to the diff and then the diff and gearbox need to go to agency for the box to be rebuilt and the diff fitted.
So probably looking at 3 weeks or so given I'm not going to get chance probably to get the crown wheel to quaiffe till next week after the autosport show.
Current outline schedule (only got weekends in feb as working away every week) is fit engine and box on the 2nd feb, start running in and mapping on the 3rd, finish running in and mapping on the 9th/10th then Bedford on the 16th for first outing.
So not a lot of slack in that plan really if any other parts end up needed or anything.
Its more or less built up now as me and dan spent an hour or so this afternoon and bolted the head down while my mrs was washing his car and my daily driver, need to order some thrust washers though as somehow they seem to have been missed off my order, my fault I think as I don't think I asked Adam for them, have put the old ones back in for now while building the rest up though.
Head is bolted down, with the most mint set of 197 cams I've seen yet fitted (thanks to scoff who nicked them from a mega low miles 197 engine for me).
So basically all that's left to do on the core engine now is:
fit thrust washers.
fit sump.
Time Cambelt.
Annoyingly though I'm going to be waiting ages before we can refit it as I've got to get my crown wheel over to quaiffe to fit to the diff and then the diff and gearbox need to go to agency for the box to be rebuilt and the diff fitted.
So probably looking at 3 weeks or so given I'm not going to get chance probably to get the crown wheel to quaiffe till next week after the autosport show.
Current outline schedule (only got weekends in feb as working away every week) is fit engine and box on the 2nd feb, start running in and mapping on the 3rd, finish running in and mapping on the 9th/10th then Bedford on the 16th for first outing.
So not a lot of slack in that plan really if any other parts end up needed or anything.
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