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Fred and James’ Clio 182 Racecar Project



2 Clios Jon

ClioSport Club Member
Also in case it helps at all, my father has had this set for years which I borrow fairly often, its simple but works really well.

Thumbs up for that one too as i use it to set my car up.
 

Touring_Rob

ClioSport Club Member
It will depend on whats been setup on the bump steer adjustment. A bit of toe out is more desirable on dive as you probably wont be able to get zero bump steer.
What do you mean by bump steer adjustment Zac, The steering rack is behind the wheels so when the car dives or wheels go up into the arch the steering arm will always appear to get shorter assuming it starts from level, or in my case beyond level as I don't have the RCC kit.
 

Usr117063

ClioSport Club Member
What do you mean by bump steer adjustment Zac, The steering rack is behind the wheels so when the car dives or wheels go up into the arch the steering arm will always appear to get shorter assuming it starts from level, or in my case beyond level as I don't have the RCC kit.

Using the shims to adjust the tie rod height. This video gives an idea what it is.
 

Usr117063

ClioSport Club Member
ahhh - thats semi what I though you were talking about. All I know is that my car requires some of that. I'm actually not enjoying life with the spacers much at all currently.
You know some of the stuff Ive talked about to you, it all has an effect on what you are experiencing.. The problem is the steering in these cars have more play in them than a jungle gym. So more positive scrub radius which makes the wheels respond to the road more, which is a good thing in a race car, makes the steering in these cars go all over the place.
 

Hollidog

ClioSport Club Member
  182
8 degrees caster, wow! I think standard is around 3. As Zach says, you will want to revise your static camber settings as as soon as you turn the wheel those will increase dramatically. I'm not sure what a good starting position would be, but I run 2.5deg on my standard caster so would imagine that is way too much for your use.
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
8 degrees caster, wow! I think standard is around 3. As Zach says, you will want to revise your static camber settings as as soon as you turn the wheel those will increase dramatically. I'm not sure what a good starting position would be, but I run 2.5deg on my standard caster so would imagine that is way too much for your use.
Going to check what the camber increases to with steering angle and will see if it’s still sensible.

I am then curious to why Suspension Secrets would show a FWD touring car should have 12-15 degrees of castor?

Different story if running slicks?

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Hollidog

ClioSport Club Member
  182
I'm no expert, but the generally accepted wisdom is run as much caster as possible. This means you can run less static camber and increase the contact patch of the tyre when the car is going straight and improve the braking and traction performance. However, as with all things suspension, changing one element can affect several others.

The race car referenced above probably also has adjustment for kingpin inclination angle which needs to be considered when dramatically changing caster angles, they're connected in terms of steering weight through a jacking force and dynamic camber but I don't exactly understand how.
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
I'm no expert, but the generally accepted wisdom is run as much caster as possible. This means you can run less static camber and increase the contact patch of the tyre when the car is going straight and improve the braking and traction performance. However, as with all things suspension, changing one element can affect several others.

The race car referenced above probably also has adjustment for kingpin inclination angle which needs to be considered when dramatically changing caster angles, they're connected in terms of steering weight through a jacking force and dynamic camber but I don't exactly understand how.
Ah!

So the first part of that is exactly what I was thinking and understand. Best I do some more reading on the latter part.

Cheers.
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
I'm no expert, but the generally accepted wisdom is run as much caster as possible. This means you can run less static camber and increase the contact patch of the tyre when the car is going straight and improve the braking and traction performance. However, as with all things suspension, changing one element can affect several others.

The race car referenced above probably also has adjustment for kingpin inclination angle which needs to be considered when dramatically changing caster angles, they're connected in terms of steering weight through a jacking force and dynamic camber but I don't exactly understand how.
So King Pin Inclination or steering axis inclination shouldn’t have changed too much.
http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/glossary/steering-axis-inclination/
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But steering axis offset would have changed. However I have changed the ball joint position top and bottom so steering axis offset maybe about the same but certainly mechanical trail would have increased a lot.
http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/glossary/steering-axis-offset/
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But certainly may be sensible to start at something less drastic and work from there since I have little idea what effect It will have to a Clio.
 

Usr117063

ClioSport Club Member
Running 15s and the pms roll centre lower joint will have an effect and lower mechanical trail. Im on 16s without roll centre correction with 4.7 deg caster and the weight of the steering wheel is good, I wouldnt go any lower which is why I wont fit a RCK, instead going a custom route.
 

Usr117063

ClioSport Club Member
Taken from Milliken. This sums up how touring car can run that much caster.

"The camber of the wheels when steered is a function of the kingpin angled and the caster angled. With no kingpin angled (and no caster angled) there is no camber change with steer lock. As kingpin is added (but still no caster) the wheel will 'lose' camber with steer lock, or in other words it will change in a direction giving positive camber on the outside wheel. As caster is added, this modifies the effect of kingpin. With positive caster and no kingpin angle, the wheel gains negative camber on the outside wheel and positive camber on the inside wheel. Thus caster can add favorable camber angle to the effects of kingpin angle. In other words, the reason that low kingpin angles are desirable is that kingpin angle subtracts from the negative camber gain due to caster on the outside wheel."
 

Usr117063

ClioSport Club Member
Adjustable lower arms to gain track could give you more king pin angle to then be able to run 8+ caster, but then that lessens scrub radius which you might not want to take away too much of.
 

Greeny.

ClioSport Club Member
  182 + 330d
Wow totally missed this thead until I saw it up on the homepage today, what a machine, amazing. Im also about to order those Corvette ducts, what a find that is, the seller is going to be really confused getting all these UK orders coming through as I can see them being quite popular tbh.
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Wow totally missed this thead until I saw it up on the homepage today, what a machine, amazing. Im also about to order those Corvette ducts, what a find that is, the seller is going to be really confused getting all these UK orders coming through as I can see them being quite popular tbh.
Thanks, hoping it lives up to expectations in June.

Looks like they are sold out on eBay now.
 

Greeny.

ClioSport Club Member
  182 + 330d
Thanks, hoping it lives up to expectations in June.

Looks like they are sold out on eBay now.

Yeh think I got the last set! £75 posted isn’t to bad I suppose with all the taxes and what not, seems like a really good off the shelf option to me, especially as they bolt straight on! Not exactly sure how I’m going to secure them to my cut up cup racer ducts as I also want to be able to take my front bumper off very regularly and easily but sure I’ll sort something out!
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Yeh think I got the last set! £75 posted isn’t to bad I suppose with all the taxes and what not, seems like a really good off the shelf option to me, especially as they bolt straight on! Not exactly sure how I’m going to secure them to my cut up cup racer ducts as I also want to be able to take my front bumper off very regularly and easily but sure I’ll sort something out!
I think a bolt in the top on the duct going into the bumper beam will do the job. Will keep them in the right place so the bumper can come off and on easily. Plan on having a look at it this weekend.
 

Greeny.

ClioSport Club Member
  182 + 330d
I think a bolt in the top on the duct going into the bumper beam will do the job. Will keep them in the right place so the bumper can come off and on easily. Plan on having a look at it this weekend.
Interested to see how you get on as I wont have mine until the end of the month (y)
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Post number 21.

Was good seeing the TDC and TDT starting again on Sunday. Hopefully in a years time we’ll be taking part!!

Few bits done over the weekend.

Started making some headlight blanks, the blanks themselves went well but made a horrendous attempt at wrapping them, turns out a squeegee probably is needed so will be having another go at the wrapping. Started with a cheap set of non xenon headlights and cut the back on them out with a die grinder and smoothed the edges off with a flap wheel bit. 2kg saving per light over the xenon ones.

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Added another USB charging port. So will be able to keep 2 cameras, camera remote and headset Bluetooth dongle plugged in so won’t have to worry about keeping them charged up.

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Had a play around with the ECU Master ADU display pages. Added some more data to the main page along with consolidating the ecu and gps information to one page.

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Created a pit limiter page, pit limiter will be turned on from the CAN Keypad, shows the temperatures, count down timer, speed and revs.

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Created a number of overlays which shows for a few seconds when the outputs are turned on. For example when the ignition is turned on (fuel pump, ignition coils and injectors), the overlay also includes key data relating to the particular output.

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Been looking at wheel and tyre sizes. The series we want to do uses Toyo r888r tyres so will stick with them but not sure what size to go for. Options are either 7j or 8j 15inch wheels, with the corresponding tyre sizes being 205/50r15 or 225/45/r15. What do you use? Is there a benefit of going to an 8inch wheel and go with 225/45 tyres?
 
  Ph2 172, R34 Skyline
Can’t comment on the tyre discussion unfortunately as I’ve not tried the two sizes, but just stepping in again to say the dash/data is awesome, such great detail on this build. I hope you feel as proud of your work as we all feel reading it!
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Can’t comment on the tyre discussion unfortunately as I’ve not tried the two sizes, but just stepping in again to say the dash/data is awesome, such great detail on this build. I hope you feel as proud of your work as we all feel reading it!
Thank you very much!

Think it will sink in when we finally get it to the track, getting excited now, 5 weeks until taking it to be mapped.
 
  Twingo 133 Cup,
All that display stuff looks amazing and way above my head! Bet you can't wait to get it mapped and out on track. 2 weeks today until I go and get mine mapped and can't wait.
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
All that display stuff looks amazing and way above my head! Bet you can't wait to get it mapped and out on track. 2 weeks today until I go and get mine mapped and can't wait.
Cheers mate.

It seems like a lot from the outset but just by playing around and a few pushes in the right direction from people you soon pick it up. And then the concept of setting the ADU up is exactly the same as the PMU. There’s still a few things I don’t seem to be able to do but that’s more how to feed the ecu with additional information so no doubt RRR will be able to show me when we go down.

Where are you getting yours mapped?
 

Chambers_RS

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172 Cup&Leon K1
When I ordered my brakes and wheels from PMS I was debating 7j or 8j 15s. Nick reckon 8j need a little work to stop catching if I remember correctly, along with offsets and camber playing apart. I went 7j in the end but mainly because the 8j wheels were along wait time 😂.
Once mines built I’ll be ordering another set but 8js.
Oh Nick also mentioned he had a template he can send out before you buy from him.

As others have set awesome work and giving me motivation 👍🏻
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
When I ordered my brakes and wheels from PMS I was debating 7j or 8j 15s. Nick reckon 8j need a little work to stop catching if I remember correctly, along with offsets and camber playing apart. I went 7j in the end but mainly because the 8j wheels were along wait time 😂.
Once mines built I’ll be ordering another set but 8js.
Oh Nick also mentioned he had a template he can send out before you buy from him.

As others have set awesome work and giving me motivation 👍🏻
Mmmmm, sounds like we’ll have to give 8js a go at some point. Think we are going to give the pro track wheels a go, they are bringing out a 15inch 7j this summer so they will have the option of 7j and 8j too.

Thanks!
 

alexandre.

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio K4T
Been looking at wheel and tyre sizes. The series we want to do uses Toyo r888r tyres so will stick with them but not sure what size to go for. Options are either 7j or 8j 15inch wheels, with the corresponding tyre sizes being 205/50r15 or 225/45/r15. What do you use? Is there a benefit of going to an 8inch wheel and go with 225/45 tyres?

Dont know if is necessary so wiiide tyres like 225, 205 should be enought.
I have used a048 195/50r15 (front tyres) on trackdays with the 1.6 turbo engine (260hp), feels like i need a little bit more tyre to help me brake a little later, but 195/50r15 a048 was too much for the Cup dampers with Grams springs and i can feel that was too much grip for my suspension setup.

I drove a friend clio (1.0 turbo 150hp) with a048 225/50r15 with stiffer dampers and coil than mine but less power and the feeling was like they said on the video, the car was fantastic overall but was because the tyres, you can do the turn in any way and floor it, the tyres do the rest with soooo much grip, at the end my friend car feels like a go kart but at the same time was slower than we expect
 

Nafoff

ClioSport Club Member
When I ordered my brakes and wheels from PMS I was debating 7j or 8j 15s. Nick reckon 8j need a little work to stop catching if I remember correctly, along with offsets and camber playing apart. I went 7j in the end but mainly because the 8j wheels were along wait time 😂.
Once mines built I’ll be ordering another set but 8js.
Oh Nick also mentioned he had a template he can send out before you buy from him.

As others have set awesome work and giving me motivation 👍🏻

I was running 8J front and 9J rears on mine with no issues, but they were custom offsets and as you say camber did play a small part too.
Love this build
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Post number 22 (Been waiting for this one for a while)

Now it was count down to mapping which was booked for 17th May at RRR Engineering (ECU Master UK). Had a few jobs to do prior to mapping and more importantly pass my B+E trailer test so I was actually allowed to tow the Clio.

First was a tidy up for the engine bay and inside, a few cable ties to keep things where it should be. Replaced the fuel pump connector as it kept losing connection and the fuel pump would drop out. The crimps were buggered basically.

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Rear towing eye. Used an adjustable TRS and bolted to the boot floor, probably could have got away with a standard length one. But gave a bit of margin.

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Whilst going round doing a spanner check I noticed the RHS drive shaft cv boot was still touching the engine block, thought I had fixed this previously by adjusting the boot position along the drive shaft. So decided to machine off the tab on the engine block. Before and after picture.

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Also gave wrapping the headlights another go, did a shite job the first couple of goes, 3rd try was possibly a 6/10 so certainly improving. Cleaned the sticky pads off where the number plates use to be so it was all ready for its first trip out.

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Decided to check what sort of nose weight we were looking at to make sure the Clio was in the right place for the future. Measured at nose and jockey wheel so in future can just check the jockey wheel and then will know roughly what the nose will be, only found the measuring pole things up to 140kg so are pretty pointless. So used the car scales instead.

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Next stop RRR Engineering!
 

FrogJam Motorsport

ClioSport Club Member
Post number 22 continued.

Arrived at RRR Engineering and to say I was excited was an understatement, at times over the past 2.5 years it felt like the end was never in sight but it was actually happening.

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Greg and the team wasted no time and got the Clio on the dyno. I had a number of questions regarding the setup between the ECU Master gear (EMU Black, PMU and ADU) which Greg said he’d go through each of them one by one once the car was mapped.

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Then ran into an issue that the PMU was shutting itself down at 6k rpm. Did it a few times. And I immediately thought the worse that the loom I made was crap and there was an electrical problem that we’d never find. Greg wasn’t convinced and found that the crash sensor was being triggered. I had hard mounted the PMU to a sheet of aluminium which is then bolted to the bulkhead so must have been vibrating quite a lot. Sure enough, turned the crash sensor off and no more problems. So one job before testing was to mount the EMU and PMU on some rubber instead.

Apart from that we didn’t have any other issues and after a few hours it was time for some power runs.





Made 152whp at 6550rpm. Seeing as it was a stock engine with 110k miles on it we thought that was pretty spot on.

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Greg then patiently went through my list of questions which I hadn’t been able to work out prior to the visit, didn’t just sort them out but showed me and explained how to approach each one which was great. Meant I had a better understanding of how to do all sorts with the hardware.

It was things like how to send data via CAN from the ADU to the EMU and then allocate that CAN message to an input. For example sending wheel speed from the ADU to the EMU and then mapping it to the correct input so the EMU can use wheel speed for the pit limiter/gear calculator. How to make a start/stop button rather than just turning off the ignition button.

Whilst there we picked up the CAN Keypad inserts, always can get some more if we change our minds in the future.

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We also got the newly released tyre pressure and temperature monitoring system from RRR. Will send pressures and temperatures via CAN to be displayed on the ADU. We also asked what they recommended for overlaying data onto video and it was great to hear that ECU Master are working on some new software to do just that. So hopefully in the near future we’ll be able to make some great onboard videos with overlays of all the data we’ll be logging.

So all in all a great day down at RRR, big thanks to Greg and his team, all really helpful and friendly people and would highly recommend them! Was well worth the long day not that it felt long as I was like a kid at Christmas.

Now time to get ready for our first test which hopefully will be at Teeside Autodrome. Need to get it booked but hopefully in the next couple of weeks.
 


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