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172 cup boosted track toy!



neil a

ClioSport Club Member
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Never had a fan from McGill but all the other parts Ive had from them have been good quality.
Stunning build and cant wait to see it at Knockhill.

On a side note what track days/nights are best at knockhill , Im really needing to get booked up on a few.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Trackscotland or the SIDC days are the best ones I've found. Really good level of driving. I've tended to avoid the hot hatch days to be honest.
 

neil a

ClioSport Club Member
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Thanks Im the same hope to try and miss the mad sunday sesh, and stick to open pit nights.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

There was a HQ Garage night on the 4th that I was aiming to have the car ready for but wanted to hold off until I knew I could make it. But sods law, it's sold out now. Next trackscotland night is on the 30th of august so I'll be booking on that one.

Might see if there is a hot hatch day between now and then to get a wee blast under my belt.
 
  172 cup
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Car is looking good mate how's it running ?

How does it feel with a bit of boost?
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Alright mate, car feels and sounds totally different. Still on the running in map so not had a chance to really boot it yet but going back to get it mapped on Sunday and can't wait. One thing I notice even at this stage is that no matter what gear it is in it just pulls so strong. And of course the noise is addictive!
 
  172 cup
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Bet it sounds good.
The run home will be great you will be looking for more power soon and and LSD
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

I thought the big spends were done for a while but your right, I've got a few things that I want to get again so it continues....

We'll need to meet up and I'll give you a blast in it!
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Oil and filter changed ready for mapping tomorrow!

Also made a bracket to hold the OE ecu on top of the top gearbox mount to get rid of the cable ties. :p
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Anything over 260 and I'll be happy. Don't want to squeeze every last horsey as it will be used on track and so don't want to be fixing it all the time.

I'll also see how this new inlet manifold works out over the winter.
 
  172 cup
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

I thought the big spends were done for a while but your right, I've got a few things that I want to get again so it continues....

We'll need to meet up and I'll give you a blast in it!


Yeah will need to catch up for a blast. Once you get a manifold on it should made a diferance also. I have a nice one here for a fr4 not far away.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Update coming soon, but let's just say that the engine is nearly out which was not the plan before going to scoffs last week! :mad:
 
  Trafic 140dci
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

What's happened mate!? About to start mine next week providing my old shell goes tomorrow as planned...
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Update time!

As I said, I went to Scoffs to get the car fully mapped last Sunday. Things were totally fine on the drive down and I arrived just before 12pm which was a 4 hour drive. Scoff quickly got the car on the rollers but it became quickly apparent that things were going to be up against us all day. Firstly, we had a rattle coming from the nimbus heat shield that was sounding like massive detonation and so the first 5 runs or so was only putting out 100hp. Once that was put right a dodgy coolant temp reading was plaguing us all day. It seemed to miss a reading every so often causing the ecu to think it was cold and so dumping 20% more fuel in and killing the power. So the sensor was changed and all seemed well for next few runs and then the problem came back so we ran a new cable in for the sensor. Again, next few runs all seemed fine then on the 3rd run back it came. It seemed to be temperature related as after the car cooled slightly it would be fine for a few runs then it would come back.

We were getting round it and starting to make some progress but then disaster. The timing side crank seal failed and oil started to drip. We pushed on for another few runs but the oil leak was getting worse until we had to stop as I was cautious that I still had to drive 250 miles home and was loosing oil at an alarming rate. 5 hours later and 1 ltr of oil topped up I made it home.

The seal has to be changed and will be very soon. I also wanted to check the timing as the car only produced 237bhp which was a lot lower than I hoped. This turned into another nightmare. When I tried to Remove the crank pin cover it would not budge. I used the inverted torques bit but no luck and couldn't get in with the impact gun. Eventually after partially rounding it off trying to remove it I decided to remove the engine again and get all jobs done at the same time with the engine out. Tried again to remove the crank pin plug and the same again, would not budge and ended up totally rounding it. Couldn't understand how or why this little bugger would be so tight! :mad: So it will have to be drilled out and re-tapped. A little worried about dwarf falling into the sump so might take the sump off.

Think the oil was overheating on the rollers too so bought a mocal laminova cooler that will be getting fitted once the engine is back in and all the fitting arrive. Need a new radiator fan too as temps are not coming down even when the fan is on, on hot days. After speaking to Andyrg about all the issues, he thought the cause of the crank oil seal leaking was the fact that i have an breather filter on the head breather port that is too restrictive and so causing too much crank pressure. This will be getting changed to a catch tank with an open vent to under the car before it goes back on the rollers!

So, to sum up, another set back but on the plus side I have learnt a lot about the car in the last week and it will make it stronger in the long run to find these issues out before it goes on track for some major abuse. Hopefully, it won't always be like this!!

Cheers :)
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Got some time today to get a couple of jobs out the road that needed done. But, the more I do, the more issues appear!

Change the crank seal as I thought this was where the leak was coming from, no. The crank seal cover bolts were all loose???

DSCF2235.jpg


Had to drill the the crank pin plug out as it would not budge by any other means so I removed the sump to stop anything falling into the sump. Glad I did as this is what was there to greet me:

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and after the debris was removed:
DSCF2227.jpg


Not sure where it has come from but not looking good. Further investigation needed but if anyone has any thoughts please let me know!

On a brighter note, got my new sandwich plate fitted fitted ready to plumb in to the Mocal Laminova oil cooler.
DSCF2241.jpg


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Got the timing belt back on and all timed up but am now thinking of stripping engine to find out where the debris in the sump came from.....
DSCF2243.jpg
 
  Trophy Turbo :)
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

That to me looks like part of your ringland!!!!!! hence high oil pressure! i thought you meant small tiny metal bits not hugh big chunks
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Update:

After finding all the debris in the sump last week I decided the only way I would know for sure if there was anything else in there or any more damage caused by it in the system was to fully strip the engine.

After fully stripping it down and giving it a good clean out I can safely say there is no more debris found but better to be safe than sorry. I have fitted new main bearings and have still to fit the conrod bearing shells. I measured up the crank and it looks spot on with no scorring so I'm happy with that. Also checked the oil pump and it was intact, clear and the pressure relief valve was moving freely. I found out that a head bolt had been drilled out before so the metal in the sump must be from that.

DSCF2244.jpg


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Pistons out and all in tact, just a bit grubby and in need of a clean.

DSCF2251.jpg


Finished up there today as I need some more bits and bobs before continuing further. Seen as the cam cover is off I thought I would take the opportunity to give it a paint but cant decide on a colour. Silver, Blue or white is my options, any thoughts on these. Cant decide what would go with the orange without being ott or clash with the orange powder coat.

And the block bagged up until next time.

DSCF2253.jpg


Big thanks to AndyRG for all his help as usual and also Mark123 for the workshop manual! cheers guys :cheers:
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Been working away with the engine and getting somewhere now. Measured up the crank and all is good so fitted the new conrod bearings, cleaned up the pistons and got them fitted.

DSCF2256.jpg


When chapping in one of the psitons a part of the middle piston ring snapped off so had to replace that.

DSCF2259.jpg


Got all the pistons back in and all the bottom end torqued up.

DSCF2262.jpg

DSCF2263.jpg


There was a slight leak from the oil return port to the sump so desided to double dowty washer the thread and fit a lock nut on the inside to make sure it is tight.

DSCF2265.jpg

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Then went about building the head back up and gave it a good lube with assembly grease.

DSCF2269.jpg

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Then got the exhaust and inlet manifolds back on and started to fit the alternator bracket but realised that ive lost one of the long bolts into the block!

DSCF2273.gif

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Desided as well on a colour for the rocker cover, oil seperator and thermostat housing so got prepping with a good clean, smoothing down of any cast bumps and a clear prime coat. Colour coat will go on this week but I'm off to the BTCC at knockhill tomorrow so nothing will get done till I get time midweek or next weekend.

DSCF2271.gif

DSCF2272.jpg


Plan is to get this all built back up and fitted next weekend as I need to get it run in and the oil changed before the 15th/16th of Sept for a SIDC trackday and PFC day at knockhill so need to get some miles done!
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Thought I'd tart the rocker cover, oil seperator cover and thermostat housing up a little before getting them back on. Not sure on the colour but looks way better than it did so it'll do.

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Got everythingelse bolted back together on the engine all ready for fitting but then as I was about to fit the clutch and gearbox on I noticed this:

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On the pressure plate / cover side of the clutch plate, there is only about 30% contact. This could be causing my issue on the rollers as scoff kept thinking the car was spinning on the rollers so it might just have been the clutch slipping.

Anyone got any ideas on this as everything looks ok when not bolted up. The flywheel side of the clutch is making good contact so I'm a little confused with this. :S All cover bolts were torqued up to 20nm as specified in the renault manual.

Another day, another set back!!! :mad:
 
  Cup In bits
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Did you have it fitted right way round, usually with clutches its nipple out??

By that I mean the spigot of the clutch ,there is a raised section in the the centre slotted part of the clutch that protrudes more on one side than the other
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

They only fit one way round. The raised bit sticks out far enough to stop the cover fitting over it.

I'll get out again tomorrow night to give it all a good check with a clock gauge.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Had a good look around all the potential causes of this issue and think I have found something.

The flyweel is perfectly flat and evenly worn. When checked with the clock gauge there was only 0.07mm run out.

DSCF2304.jpg


The paddle plate is perfectly flat also other than the slightly worn outer edge. It measures 6.75mm from face to face and 6.65mm at the outer edge.

DSCF2310.jpg


DSCF2312.jpg


Now, the cover plate is not flat but neither is the spare OE cover plate I have. When I placed a straight edge across the plate and checked the gap from outer to inner edge, there is a 0.5mm gap and you can see where the contact has been.

DSCF2300.jpg


DSCF2302.jpg


When I checked the OE plate the same way, there was a 0.25mm gap or run with even wear.

DSCF2301.jpg


DSCF2303.jpg


As far as I can see my choices are:

1) skim the face of the Helix cover plate but is ther meant to be some run out from outer to inner edges?
2) use the OE cover plate I have but will this work as good as a good helix unit would at the power level I want to go for?
3) buy a new cover plate from helix and put this down to a lesson learnt.

Appreciate any input again!

Steven
 
  Cup In bits
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Im sure my part worn paddle clutch that I will be fitting also has an uneven wear but It dosen't seem that bad. The whole face of the paddles has made contact almost.

My advice would be phone Helix, as to me that looks like a faulty pressure plate and they will have probably had it a million times.

Have you gave it beans? Plenty of time to bed in? You have only drove to scoffs and back right?

O.E cover plate is not an option, thats' one of the main reasons why you buy a paddle clutch, the spring strength.

My mate has my pressure plate just now and has been trying to machine it slyly while @ work, He says its taking far too long to setup and proving a right pain to get a hold of in a four jaw and he has to machine all kinds of funky s**t.

Finally can you give me a measurement of paddle thickness as I want to know how much "meat" I have left/used on mine?

(I just re read your post its 6.75 right?)
 
Last edited:
  RenaultSport clio 18
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Call helix to confirm, it cant be right.full contact on each paddle is required for correct operation.pressure plate surface should be flat and flush with friction plate.when you offer pressure plate and friction place together is the gap noticeable.
 
  Renault Clio Super 1600
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

I have exactly the same wear on a Helix paddle clutch that has been fitted for 35 miles. I will get in touch with Helix about it too when I get two mins, would be interesting to see what they say to you if you speak to them first.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Im sure my part worn paddle clutch that I will be fitting also has an uneven wear but It dosen't seem that bad. The whole face of the paddles has made contact almost.

My advice would be phone Helix, as to me that looks like a faulty pressure plate and they will have probably had it a million times.

Have you gave it beans? Plenty of time to bed in? You have only drove to scoffs and back right?

O.E cover plate is not an option, thats' one of the main reasons why you buy a paddle clutch, the spring strength.

My mate has my pressure plate just now and has been trying to machine it slyly while @ work, He says its taking far too long to setup and proving a right pain to get a hold of in a four jaw and he has to machine all kinds of funky s**t.

Finally can you give me a measurement of paddle thickness as I want to know how much "meat" I have left/used on mine?

(I just re read your post its 6.75 right?)

Not really given it anything other than driving it to scoffs before it had been mapped so no boost and then on the rollers where it was apparent that there an issue with something slipping.

Yeah, the majority of the paddle thickness is 6.75mm with the outside edge being 6.65mm.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

I have exactly the same wear on a Helix paddle clutch that has been fitted for 35 miles. I will get in touch with Helix about it too when I get two mins, would be interesting to see what they say to you if you speak to them first.

Are you experiencing any slip? I would be very interested to hear what they say to you but as my cover is second hand I dont think they will entertain my issue.

I would love to know if the run out is normal and evens out once bolted to the flywheel or outside of acceptable limits.

Cheers
 
  Renault Clio Super 1600
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Yes, after the bedding in process it slipped on the first race start it did at Mallory Park. The engine had issues half a lap later so we didnt go any further, and the result was very similar to yours.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

Yes, after the bedding in process it slipped on the first race start it did at Mallory Park. The engine had issues half a lap later so we didnt go any further, and the result was very similar to yours.

Not good mate!

I've emailed them with my issue and sent photo's but heard nothing back. Scoff has offered to get it machined for me so I'll take him up on that I think.

Let me know how you get on with them if you get a minute to phone them.
 
  Cup In bits
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

"I would love to know if the run out is normal and evens out once bolted to the flywheel or outside of acceptable limits"

Clutches definitely move when you fit them, watch the fingers on spring when the clutch is being tightened, you will see.
 
  172 cup, Impreza P1
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

"I would love to know if the run out is normal and evens out once bolted to the flywheel or outside of acceptable limits"

Clutches definitely move when you fit them, watch the fingers on spring when the clutch is being tightened, you will see.

Had a good discussion with Scoff about this and can see his point that the fingers move as they are linked to the cover that is being bolted but the pressure plate is a solid bit of cast that should not move and should be perfectly flat. The fact that my spare OEM cover plate also has a run makes me wonder if heat in use causes it and so a new cover and clutch plate are always fitted as a pair.

After quite a few people saying to me that they use a helix paddle with an OEM cover plate at or above the power level I want to go to, I think I'll give that a go.
 
  Renault Clio Super 1600
Re: 172 Cup track toy!

After quite a few people saying to me that they use a helix paddle with an OEM cover plate at or above the power level I want to go to, I think I'll give that a go.

I did this mate with my K4M that had 180bhp and would NEVER do it again. Clutch slipped horrifically!
 


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