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stevo172-RWD
ClioSport Club Member
clio 172 rwd
Looking forward to vids
Sounds like a strange way of dealing with it, so is it some sort of RPM vs Throttle Position set up? ie 3000rpm = your limited to 50% throttle max and then above 5000+ rpm you can get WOT?
I had the same assumptions when I started mucking about with turbos that boost creep was the wastegate opening early but it's actually when you have an incorrect size wastegate and the boost continues to rise when it's fully open.
Going back to your actuator, even though it has a decent size spring in it, it won't remain closed untill it gets to its preset 8psi. If you think that you have your inlet pressure plumbed into the actuator itself, then you also have the back pressure between the turbine wheel and the exhaust valves working against the wastegate. It's easy to see that at say 6 psi your wastegate is going to be opening. Thats why I suggested the boost solenoid route, as this completely stops any pressure reaching the actuator, leaving the actuator spring to deal easily with the exhaust back pressure. Obviously once the solenoid opens at whatever the preset setting it causes the actuator to operate pretty quick. I only ever used a 7psi T3 actuator on my set ups eespite running 18psi. It should also stop your boost spiking.
The problem you've got now is every little change you make will need a map tweak...... cher ching!
I had the same assumptions when I started mucking about with turbos that boost creep was the wastegate opening early but it's actually when you have an incorrect size wastegate and the boost continues to rise when it's fully open.
Going back to your actuator, even though it has a decent size spring in it, it won't remain closed untill it gets to its preset 8psi. If you think that you have your inlet pressure plumbed into the actuator itself, then you also have the back pressure between the turbine wheel and the exhaust valves working against the wastegate. It's easy to see that at say 6 psi your wastegate is going to be opening. Thats why I suggested the boost solenoid route, as this completely stops any pressure reaching the actuator, leaving the actuator spring to deal easily with the exhaust back pressure. Obviously once the solenoid opens at whatever the preset setting it causes the actuator to operate pretty quick. I only ever used a 7psi T3 actuator on my set ups eespite running 18psi. It should also stop your boost spiking.
The problem you've got now is every little change you make will need a map tweak...... cher ching!
Steve, it's a boost (kpa) v throttle strategy, as you achieve boost the throttle closes down gradually to stop boost rising higher. Compromised but effective. It's a closed loop strategy, so it reacts to what's going on, it won't just be dead limiting to 50% throttle (50% is only an example, it's going to be on a curve and not a straight value)
It would definitely be better to have a solenoid, and have the actuator take-off pre butterfly
It would definitely be better to have a solenoid, and have the actuator take-off pre butterfly
Clio T 314hp c43 AMG
Good figures, I'd imagine your really happy 
Do you know if your knock sensor is still plugged in?
Do you know if your knock sensor is still plugged in?Yes this is correct, max throttle capped based on RPM, as a way to limit boost.
That cant be the case though? check my 271bhp graph, the boost, although no where near as bad as some peoples graph, the boost still tapers off towards the end meaning the wastegate must be big enough to deal with its demand?
Quite agree, a nice manual boost controller would have been good to be able to get the boost right where i wanted it, i used an 'actuator only' setup to keep it basic, unfortunately on the day that didnt work and adjusting the boost by other means had to be done to get decent results. In hindsight actuator + MBC to set boost level then perhaps use the throttle cap slightly to stop the torque spike would be the a very well sorted solution.
Ohhh yes, cant wait for that part lol, proper wallett drainer. I still need to speak to you regarding that Ph1 fuel setup, my injectors are actually registering pretty much 100% cycle.
Dan unfortunately it isnt a boost vs throttle. Only RPM vs throttle "open loop" setup, i believe Ktec is now makeing enquiries on a closed loop system (through an ECU update i guess), which should make things quite interesting indeed.
Scotty2hotty, knock sensor not used on this setup.
stevo172-RWD
ClioSport Club Member
clio 172 rwd
Supposed to be good them
Done a few thousand miles now, a few niggles have shown their face. The turbo studs and nuts have come loose a couple of times (turbo was literally held on by one stud at one point!). Sorted that out, and its blown off a few boost hoses, but apart from that its perfecto still
The next logical step was to sort the clutch out. The car slipped the clutch as soon as it rolled off the dyno and had its first WOT session on the road. Timining was retarded slightly to reduce torque, and thats how it ran since.
So i bought one of these...
And put it somewhere in there...
I put another gearbox on too that i bought as my gearbox has royally shat its synrco's in 3rd and 4th. This setup was a bit of a gamble (stock pressure plate with 4 paddle friction plate). But i'm pleased to say it has worked and it bites hard. Just waiting for Ktec to send me the GEN90 software tommorow so i can restore to "full power".
Also started gathering parts from the "300" build. Have bought 5m of 8mm ID fuel hose, Ph1 Fuel rail and regulator, fuel rail tails, a Wallbro 255 pump, Meganne 225 HG Kit (thicker HG than a 172) and a wideband to keep an eye on the AFR's (better to be safe that sorry).
Just need to get.. New Oil pump, engine bearings, thrust washers, bottom end gasket kit, ARP's, head bolts and all that stuff to buy, and need an engine block aswell (if you have a cheap engine let me know!).
Then hopefully get it to run about 1.1 - 1.2 bar.
The next logical step was to sort the clutch out. The car slipped the clutch as soon as it rolled off the dyno and had its first WOT session on the road. Timining was retarded slightly to reduce torque, and thats how it ran since.
So i bought one of these...
And put it somewhere in there...
I put another gearbox on too that i bought as my gearbox has royally shat its synrco's in 3rd and 4th. This setup was a bit of a gamble (stock pressure plate with 4 paddle friction plate). But i'm pleased to say it has worked and it bites hard. Just waiting for Ktec to send me the GEN90 software tommorow so i can restore to "full power".
Also started gathering parts from the "300" build. Have bought 5m of 8mm ID fuel hose, Ph1 Fuel rail and regulator, fuel rail tails, a Wallbro 255 pump, Meganne 225 HG Kit (thicker HG than a 172) and a wideband to keep an eye on the AFR's (better to be safe that sorry).
Just need to get.. New Oil pump, engine bearings, thrust washers, bottom end gasket kit, ARP's, head bolts and all that stuff to buy, and need an engine block aswell (if you have a cheap engine let me know!).
Then hopefully get it to run about 1.1 - 1.2 bar.
Are you running m8 studs on your turbo? I had the same issue on my LCR, I ended up using m10 studs and Norlock washers and that solved the issue for me.
M10 studs, but i bought some stupid 17mm hex nuts, which makes it nigh on impossible to get the spanner on one of the bottom ones. I've got some better looking 14mm self locking copper nuts, and ive heard about these nordlock washers too ill definately look into them a bit more.
Trophy Turbo :)
Apexi AVCR for the win
Apexi AVCR for the win
oh good grief no!
Trophy Turbo :)
Dan the avcr is a amazing bit of kit one of the best boost controlers it there if SET up correcly.
What makes u say that... dont u know how to set it up...
What makes u say that... dont u know how to set it up...
Trophy Turbo :)
Laine
A good quality 3 port boost solinod will help hold the boost beymtter than the standatd crap oem one. And only abt 45quid
A good quality 3 port boost solinod will help hold the boost beymtter than the standatd crap oem one. And only abt 45quid
Have to agree with that, they are a right ballache when you first go to set one up, but they are actually well featured and reliable.
Personally though, I much prefer just using a decent ECU that has proper boost control built into it instead, Autronic SM4 being my favourite for that.
Trip to Surrey RR last weekend. Good results Its down on torque compared to Ktec. I think SRR applied a block 20% losses across the rev range, where as Ktecs losses are dynamic calculated from run downs, both therefore acheived same peak bhp at the same peak loss, but anything before that would read low? Might be wrong, but not wholey bothered either
Bottom set of lines were when i took it there standard, a nice direct comparison, aswell as having +80ft lb's over stock in some places!
And the most suiting caption for this photo "So it begins again!"
Its down on torque compared to Ktec. I think SRR applied a block 20% losses across the rev range, where as Ktecs losses are dynamic calculated from run downs, both therefore acheived same peak bhp at the same peak loss, but anything before that would read low? Might be wrong, but not wholey bothered either Bottom set of lines were when i took it there standard, a nice direct comparison, aswell as having +80ft lb's over stock in some places!
And the most suiting caption for this photo "So it begins again!"
Fiesta ST3
Brilliant mate! What's it like to drive?
Well nothing much to report, took the plunge to replace the turbo studs and nuts, a good 6-7 hour job at a leisurely pace, not fun at all but all done, i am VERY surprised at the difference a small leak can make betwen manifold an turbo, since ive changed it all it 100% is boosing better, and feeling more torquey, doesnt drop off boost as much through gear changes, i was quite shocked so it made the hours worthwhile.
I'll be makeing a brace to hold the down rigid to the block to stop and flex between the downpipe and turbo should eliminate this problem every happening again
ALso noticed the A/R stamps inside the housing now. .64 exhaust housing, and .42 compressor housing. A few pictures but nothing of real interest (im keeping up this habbit of takeing poor pictures!)
Turbo out after many hours of swearing!!
Leaking oil return, cross threaded, but think ive actually sorted it now
Also finished off fitting my Walbro 255lph pump to a spare fuel pump housing, may be helpful for others as i cant see a guide anywhere on cliosport that helps people fit these. I was contemplating doign a guide, but i didnt take enough step by step photos.
This hole is where excess pressure is vented directly into a regulator. Seeing as i am going to be using a regulator in the rail these needs to be blocked off so the fuel pump "bowl" stays pressurised. An M5 bolt creates an extremely tight fit and should work well.
Next up is actually fitting a return line into the tank, i guess you can get a ph1 which has this inbuilt but.... i didnt. Drill an 8mm hole through the top (use the tube sticking down on the bottom as a guide for a straight hole), then used an 1/8" NPTF tap and just screwed it in by hand (easy as its plastic).
Then screwed in a 1/8" NPTF 90 degree 8mm tail fitting, because the thread is tapered the more you screw it in the tighter it gets and created a good seal, hence no need for sealing washers or the like.
Next turn your attention to the wiring, quite simple chop off old plug and mate it up to the plug included in the walbro kit, exscuse the black marks on the crimps its just carbon from where i used a lighter to heatseal the crimps.
The walbro pump is fractionally larger in diameter and will not fit straight into the housing, you need to file dow the tabs that stick out until they are pretty much flush.
SLot the pump in. At this point also note the filter they give you in the kit does not fit without fouling the pump casing. Bin it and fit the OE filter that... does fit! (straight fit back onto the walbro pump)
Turn your attention to the top of the pump, youll need to replace the pipe that links the pump to the fuel housing "bowl", this was cut off when you removed the old pump (sorry didnt take pictures of that).
THe piece of pipe they included in the kit... you guessed it, its garbage. You have to flex the pipe over on a small radius, and it will kink and not work, you also dont have a massive amount of head room to fit it. I decided in the end to use some 90 degree connectors instead.
I used 13-15mm O clips on the pipe as i prefer them as a more permanent solution over jubilee clips.
And thats it job done
I'll be makeing a brace to hold the down rigid to the block to stop and flex between the downpipe and turbo should eliminate this problem every happening again
ALso noticed the A/R stamps inside the housing now. .64 exhaust housing, and .42 compressor housing. A few pictures but nothing of real interest (im keeping up this habbit of takeing poor pictures!)
Turbo out after many hours of swearing!!
Leaking oil return, cross threaded, but think ive actually sorted it now
Also finished off fitting my Walbro 255lph pump to a spare fuel pump housing, may be helpful for others as i cant see a guide anywhere on cliosport that helps people fit these. I was contemplating doign a guide, but i didnt take enough step by step photos.
This hole is where excess pressure is vented directly into a regulator. Seeing as i am going to be using a regulator in the rail these needs to be blocked off so the fuel pump "bowl" stays pressurised. An M5 bolt creates an extremely tight fit and should work well.
Next up is actually fitting a return line into the tank, i guess you can get a ph1 which has this inbuilt but.... i didnt. Drill an 8mm hole through the top (use the tube sticking down on the bottom as a guide for a straight hole), then used an 1/8" NPTF tap and just screwed it in by hand (easy as its plastic).
Then screwed in a 1/8" NPTF 90 degree 8mm tail fitting, because the thread is tapered the more you screw it in the tighter it gets and created a good seal, hence no need for sealing washers or the like.
Next turn your attention to the wiring, quite simple chop off old plug and mate it up to the plug included in the walbro kit, exscuse the black marks on the crimps its just carbon from where i used a lighter to heatseal the crimps.
The walbro pump is fractionally larger in diameter and will not fit straight into the housing, you need to file dow the tabs that stick out until they are pretty much flush.
SLot the pump in. At this point also note the filter they give you in the kit does not fit without fouling the pump casing. Bin it and fit the OE filter that... does fit! (straight fit back onto the walbro pump)
Turn your attention to the top of the pump, youll need to replace the pipe that links the pump to the fuel housing "bowl", this was cut off when you removed the old pump (sorry didnt take pictures of that).
THe piece of pipe they included in the kit... you guessed it, its garbage. You have to flex the pipe over on a small radius, and it will kink and not work, you also dont have a massive amount of head room to fit it. I decided in the end to use some 90 degree connectors instead.
I used 13-15mm O clips on the pipe as i prefer them as a more permanent solution over jubilee clips.
And thats it job done
That would have been too easy
I dont know what tube to use that can bend over that radius without kinking.I did think that, but i cant actually figure out why a spring is needed, and why it would only be installed one side? Screwing the mouting ring doesnt cause it to compress in any way?
172 cup, Impreza P1
That would have been too easy
You need corrugated tubing as used on the original. I just removed mine carefully and reused it. Works fine.
Gotcha! so is there a platform inside the the tank the housing located onto to sit it square? and then the ring comrpesses down? or does the houising just bottom out on the tank floor?
This is all new to me to be fair, first time ive ever even removed or fettled with a fue pump / sender unit.
Um i used some M10 studding from screwfix and hacksawed to length, nothing fancy im afraid!!
Replaced the air filter today, after i originally ripped the neck off the Jetex filter and glued a neck on, that has now failed and a jubilee clip rubbed through makeing a small hole.... its now seen better days lol. Wasnt impressed with the build quality in general.
Contacted pipercross who knocked me a filter up with identical dimensions, made much much better so stuck it on
I think the actuator is getting a touch lazy its not hitting boost as hard as it used to, fitted a Turbosmart manual boost controller to try and trim it back to 10psi. Took it out for a drive and gingerly hit the throttle and it shot up to 15psi with little effort with the engine/turbo makeing some strange screeching noises. I promptly returned home and threw the piece of junk in the bin lol.
I made a bracket to brace the downpipe to the block, the block mountin point is not ideal (single mount point), I've had it on a couple of weeks without issue now and it seems to help. ill improve it when the engine is back out, but its not important at the mo.
Got engine black from the machine shop all freshly honed, got them to tap and drill me a proper oil return aswell to rid me of the leaking mess i have at the mo.
Main and big end bearings and thrust washers have turned up aswell as a new set of ARP 2000 bolts. Im hopeing to get the pistons and crank bolted in at the weekend if the weather is kind enough
From there it should only be another month or so before its ready to drop in (want to strip the head, lap the valves and check thats all ok).
I made a bracket to brace the downpipe to the block, the block mountin point is not ideal (single mount point), I've had it on a couple of weeks without issue now and it seems to help. ill improve it when the engine is back out, but its not important at the mo.
Got engine black from the machine shop all freshly honed, got them to tap and drill me a proper oil return aswell to rid me of the leaking mess i have at the mo.
Main and big end bearings and thrust washers have turned up aswell as a new set of ARP 2000 bolts. Im hopeing to get the pistons and crank bolted in at the weekend if the weather is kind enough
From there it should only be another month or so before its ready to drop in (want to strip the head, lap the valves and check thats all ok).
At the top of the rev range I will be surprised if it even manages to maintain that much boost, so it will be absolutely flat out turbo RPM wise, so a 360 bearing would certainly be a bonus in terms of reliability, but realistically I wouldnt bother taking it out to fit a 360 one, just replace it with one if the turbo dies or get another turbo to do it too in the mean time, they arent worth enough money to be pulling it out to do it.
