BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[Jonny1*2]

Wouldn't even matter if they were shorter - if you talk to anyone that understands the way bolts work - 90% of the stress is taken on the first 3 or 4 threads

If the bolts come out - it wasn't torqued up properly - simple as
Just like everything else on the initial build of this car - no detail to attention at all. I think that's fairly obvious just looking at the wiring loom lol

Not the same, but for example, my exhaust cam spun after a garage changed the belts. I had fitted CATCAM 421s which were used, and because the stud was had shrunk slightly, and even though the nut was torqued up correctly, it loosened off and spun

 

[Silent_Scone]

Well if the same person fitted my rear shocks that did said error then it makes perfect sense. They need to sack 'that' off before anything else goes wrong for a start.

 

[Jonny1*2]

a general engineering rule for bolts is that they need to go into a thread 1.25 times their diameter. There's a lot more thread than that, tiny differences in length will make no odds

Fair enough mate.

 

[Dan519]

Not the same, but for example, my exhaust cam spun after a garage changed the belts. I had fitted CATCAM 421s which were used, and because the stud was had shrunk slightly, and even though the nut was torqued up correctly, it loosened off and spun

you've been spun some double bullshit there

1. the stud can be wound in too deep on catcams as the thread goes deeper than standard, this is a mistake made by those who don't know how to do it.
2. if the nut wound off it wasn't tightened properly. no question. I've seen plenty that have had the stud fitted too deep and none have ever spun. I'm going to go with it wasn't angle tightened at all

 

[Jonny1*2]

Oh. Maybe the case as they guy had never used aftermarket cams on Clio's before. Needless to say it made a mess of my engine eitherway.

 

[Space Cadet]

Thanks James. I assumed you'd be running slicks? The DZ03's look a good alternative to the 888's if I don’t go with slicks, but having used the 888's in torrential rain (on track) I know they're fantastic and probably therefore the better of the two if I'm only going to have the one set of track tyres. I have a brand new set of T1-R's for the road and was thinking of running these on track when it's wet and then the slicks for when its dry but in all likelihood I'll wait until next year when I SORN the car, get a trailer and can then have a set of wets and also slicks and not have to worry about road tyres. Hope you get the car sorted mate! BR, Mark

 

[BIGASH]

Take some pics of your end crank cap please all angles..

No worries mate will drop you another email with them but will be late tonight before I can sort i'm afraid

Least the cams are ok, guess you'll be keeping them then. (If you've got any sense ) Weird how the bolts nowhere to be found. Maybe someone forgot their left loosey from their righty tighty

Yes i'm really glad as it opens up my options I changed my mind last night while chatting it over with a mate and think I will keep them. Money is tight and all the small jobs for winter are really racking upto a lot more than I can really afford so will probably not change the cams just to save some money

The ARP bolts are 3/8" AF socket, 12 point IIRC.

Oooo I might have one of those tbf!

Thanks James. I assumed you'd be running slicks? The DZ03's look a good alternative to the 888's if I don’t go with slicks, but having used the 888's in torrential rain (on track) I know they're fantastic and probably therefore the better of the two if I'm only going to have the one set of track tyres. I have a brand new set of T1-R's for the road and was thinking of running these on track when it's wet and then the slicks for when its dry but in all likelihood I'll wait until next year when I SORN the car, get a trailer and can then have a set of wets and also slicks and not have to worry about road tyres. Hope you get the car sorted mate! BR, Mark

No worries No not for CSCC we have to use list 1a tyres. Yes definitly but if you have a set of decent wets (maybe R1R's) then I would go with the direzzas. Plans sound good mate. Thank you, James

 

[BIGASH]

Wow I wasn't expecting to have half an hours reading just from the last 12 hours lol!

I can't say if they were fitted correctly, I have had other bolts come loose and the sump bolts I took off the other night were mega tight but who knows and I can't blame TDF for the engine unless I know for sure which I never will so i'm just going to forget it.

Don't flame me for this and you've got to remember i'm a novice but surely if someone can kindly tell me the tourque figures for the ARP's then I can check the others? I know it could of just been one that hadn't been tourqed correctly but at least it would indicate if they had overlooked touquing them?

 

[Dan519]

47-49Nm if they were done with a torque wrench, may be a little different if they were done with a stretch gauge. Matt once flamed me on here and told me ARP's were impossible to fit correctly without a stretch gauge.

 

[Silent_Scone]

Meh, engines let go at the end of the day. Just seems a bit funneh don't it


No worries on cams James lol, worth a shot

 

[BIGASH]

47-49Nm if they were done with a torque wrench, may be a little different if they were done with a stretch gauge. Matt once flamed me on here and told me ARP's were impossible to fit correctly without a stretch gauge.

Nice one I will go play tonight Not a clue what a stretch gauge is lol

Meh, engines let go at the end of the day. Just seems a bit funneh don't it

Yeah exactly mate! The only reason i'm taking it apart is to actually learn how the engine is put together rather than my previous knowledge which is turn the key and drive it lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Torque for undoing will be different to torque for doing up (when doing up the stretch of the bolt hinders you, when undoing it helps you)

Put a torque wrench on 40lbft and try and tighten the others, if it doesnt click straight away then they were blatantly all too loose, if it does then you will have to give him the benefit of the doubt I guess.

Although personally even if the other 6 are tight I still say those 2 were loose.

 

[BIGASH]

Torque for undoing will be different to torque for doing up (when doing up the stretch of the bolt hinders you, when undoing it helps you)

Put a torque wrench on 40lbft and try and tighten the others, if it doesnt click straight away then they were blatantly all too loose, if it does then you will have to give him the benefit of the doubt I guess.

Although personally even if the other 6 are tight I still say those 2 were loose.

Sorry yes mate I meant for me to tighten them to see if they kept turning before clicking

Cool I will give that a try tonight when I get in the garage

Yeah I can't see how else they aren't there but not much I can do

 

[Cup_Phil]

I think the whole "bolt could have been undertorqued" would bother me if it was my engine - but no where near as much as sending me out racing without a working oil temp or pressure gauge. I have a working oil temp and pressure gauge on my car and it cost about £50 in bits and 30mins of my time.

Grrr

 

[BIGASH]

I think the whole "bolt could have been undertorqued" would bother me if it was my engine - but no where near as much as sending me out racing without a working oil temp or pressure gauge. I have a working oil temp and pressure gauge on my car and it cost about £50 in bits and 30mins of my time.

Grrr

Oh yes mate it does bother me but not much I can do so don't want to sit here and slate TDF unless 100% it wasn't correct its just not the way I am. Don't want false information out there.

Until a few weeks ago I always presumed it had a pressure warning light and the oil temp sensor I paid for to be fitted ontop of the original project because that didn't include it and then the car went back 7 times as it wasn't working (Surprisingly it hadn't even been fitted) then it worked for 1 day in my garage and then went again

I did try and sort both out before Oulton which is when I discovered the wiring, spoke with race technology about how I could wire them up they asked to see a photo of the DL1 connector and the Dash 2 to see what inputs/outputs had been used and then just laughed at the wiring and said forget it so it never got done

 

[Jonny1*2]

I think the whole "bolt could have been undertorqued" would bother me if it was my engine - but no where near as much as sending me out racing without a working oil temp or pressure gauge. I have a working oil temp and pressure gauge on my car and it cost about £50 in bits and 30mins of my time.

Grrr

Guide needed for this

 

[Cup_Phil]

Oh yes mate it does bother me but not much I can do so don't want to sit here and slate TDF unless 100% it wasn't correct its just not the way I am. Don't want false information out there.

Until a few weeks ago I always presumed it had a pressure warning light and the oil temp sensor I paid for to be fitted ontop of the original project because that didn't include it and then the car went back 7 times as it wasn't working (Surprisingly it hadn't even been fitted) then it worked for 1 day in my garage and then went again

I did try and sort both out before Oulton which is when I discovered the wiring, spoke with race technology about how I could wire them up they asked to see a photo of the DL1 connector and the Dash 2 to see what inputs/outputs had been used and then just laughed at the wiring and said forget it so it never got done

I can understand them saying that to be honest after seeing the wiring - fecking hell
I'm supposed to be getting the Race Tech dash for my own this winter - I reckon even I could do a better job of wiring it in than that lol

Guide needed for this

Hahah it's not hard mate - £10 ebay sandwich plate, fit sensors into sandwich plate, run 4 wires into dashboard and connect to gauges.

 

[BIGASH]

Haha yes I know lol!

Yes mate its not difficult, I have got to get all new connectors for mine but was reading up on it the other day and basically one connector goes to the ECU and the other for various inputs but looks easy enough

 

[Jonny1*2]

Hahah it's not hard mate - £10 ebay sandwich plate, fit sensors into sandwich plate, run 4 wires into dashboard and connect to gauges.

Ah so you didn't do the sump plug method. Fare enough. It would be cool to run it into the ecu ideally, but gauges are more useful. I can hide them somewhere I suppose Where did you take the power from?

 

[Chip-mk1]

My dash2 works by an interface cable to my autronic SM4 ecu, it allows me to see anything at all that the ECU can see, and I can program specific outputs on the ECU too if I want to which it will publish too.

I assume the EC1 can do similar with an interface as well.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ah so you didn't do the sump plug method. Fare enough. It would be cool to run it into the ecu ideally, but gauges are more useful. I can hide them somewhere I suppose Where did you take the power from?

With a decent dash, if you put them into the ecu, you can see them on the dash too as well, and set alarms etc.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I took a power feed from back of ignition across to where the head unit was - then split it into the gauges.
Connected an earth to the main bar running behind the dash and split that into the gauges too
Even found a 12v feed to the standard switches (hazard etc..) which comes on with the headlights so the gauges light up too.

The wiring from the gauges to the sender units was just 2 wires - so ran 4 through into the engine bay and connected up - jobs a good un

I'm hoping to swap to a Race Tech dash over winter so then I'll want to connect them to the dashboard rather than gauges - but the gauges are nice and visible when you're out on track - I stuck them where the head unit used to be along with a wideband lambda gauge

The sump plug method scares the s**t out of me - having something stuck out under the car that when you smash off dumps all your engine oil everywhere lol

 

[BIGASH]

My dash2 works by an interface cable to my autronic SM4 ecu, it allows me to see anything at all that the ECU can see, and I can program specific outputs on the ECU too if I want to which it will publish too.

I assume the EC1 can do similar with an interface as well.

Yes sorry the EC1 does have the interface but mine still has quite a few wires into conn2 on the dash 2 for warning lights etc I think

With a decent dash, if you put them into the ecu, you can see them on the dash too as well, and set alarms etc.

The problem with the EC1 is if you run either Pit lane speed limiter or Launch control then there aren't enough inputs to run temp/pressure sensors too so have to go direct to the Dash or Datalogger

 

[BIGASH]

Jonny if you don't run either PLSL or Launch control then I think pin 29 on the ECU is for an NTC input i.e. Oil temp

 

[sbridgey]

Done any work today James or have you just been sat in this thread?

 

[BIGASH]

Done any work today James or have you just been sat in this thread?

Doing work for me at the moment is sat at my desk scouring the internet/phonecalls job hunting so this is a nice break lol! Come 6 o'clock I will give up and go start work on the car

 

[shiftspark]

Are you sure its 1a tyres James not 1b ?

 

[BIGASH]

a,b,c,z,y one of them I always get confused

 

[shiftspark]

a,b,c,z,y one of them I always get confused

Because you never sleep :sleepy:

 

[BIGASH]

Shhhh I had at least 4 hours last night i'm getting better lol

 

[Cub.]

Doing work for me at the moment is sat at my desk scouring the internet/phonecalls job hunting so this is a nice break lol! Come 6 o'clock I will give up and go start work on the car

What job are you hunting for James?

 

[shiftspark]

I think your a vampire......

 

[BIGASH]

What job are you hunting for James?

Having a change of direction and got a degree in construction property management so looking down that avenue at the moment but the market is still tough and trying not to move out of the area but will see what happens

I think your a vampire......

Haha

 

[Cub.]

I work for this company currently mate;

www.jacobs.com

PM me if you want, as property, engineering and construction is a rather large part of my world. I'd be happy to help the search if I can, and if you want me to.

 

[BIGASH]

I work for this company currently mate;

www.jacobs.com

PM me if you want, as property, engineering and construction is a rather large part of my world. I'd be happy to help the search if I can, and if you want me to.

Thanks for that Oli! I will drop you a pm in a minute if you don't mind

 

[Cub.]

Don't mind at all chap, fire it through.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Jonny if you don't run either PLSL or Launch control then I think pin 29 on the ECU is for an NTC input i.e. Oil temp

Are you sure it's 29 mate? I'm looking at the pin diagram on SX and it says 29 is AUX. 31 is NTC. Unless you have different wiring information?

 

[Jonny1*2]

This is what i've got;

[TABLE="width: 708"]
[TR]
[TD]Pin
[/TD]
[TD]Name
[/TD]
[TD]Description
[/TD]
[TD]Notes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1
[/TD]
[TD]VBATT
[/TD]
[TD]Battery Voltage Direct
[/TD]
[TD]Direct Battery Power 6-15V
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2
[/TD]
[TD]VKEY
[/TD]
[TD]Ignition Key Input
[/TD]
[TD]Switched Ignition Feed
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3
[/TD]
[TD]GROUND
[/TD]
[TD]Power Ground
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4
[/TD]
[TD]INJ1
[/TD]
[TD]Injector 1
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5
[/TD]
[TD]INJ2
[/TD]
[TD]Injector 2
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6
[/TD]
[TD]INJ3
[/TD]
[TD]Injector 3
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7
[/TD]
[TD]INJ4
[/TD]
[TD]Injector 4
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8
[/TD]
[TD]DIG_GND
[/TD]
[TD]Crank/Cam Sensor Ground
[/TD]
[TD]Digital Ground
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9
[/TD]
[TD]CRANK
[/TD]
[TD]Crank Sensor
[/TD]
[TD]Hall effect or Variable Reluctance input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10
[/TD]
[TD]CAM1
[/TD]
[TD]Inlet Camshaft Sensor Bank 1
[/TD]
[TD]Hall effect or Variable Reluctance input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11
[/TD]
[TD]TCOOL
[/TD]
[TD]Coolant Temp Input
[/TD]
[TD]0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12
[/TD]
[TD]TAIR
[/TD]
[TD]Air Temp Input
[/TD]
[TD]0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]IGN1
[/TD]
[TD]Power or TTL Ignition Coil 1
[/TD]
[TD]Hardware selected output type
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14
[/TD]
[TD]IGN2
[/TD]
[TD]Power or TTL Ignition Coil 2
[/TD]
[TD]Hardware selected output type
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15
[/TD]
[TD]IGN3
[/TD]
[TD]Power or TTL Ignition Coil 3
[/TD]
[TD]Hardware selected output type
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]IGN4
[/TD]
[TD]Power or TTL Ignition Coil 4
[/TD]
[TD]Hardware selected output type
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17
[/TD]
[TD]LINEAR1
[/TD]
[TD]Analogue Input 1
[/TD]
[TD]User Configurable 0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]18
[/TD]
[TD]CAM2
[/TD]
[TD]Inlet Camshaft Sensor Bank 2
[/TD]
[TD]Hall effect or Variable Reluctance input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19
[/TD]
[TD]NTC_GND1
[/TD]
[TD]Temp Sensors Ground
[/TD]
[TD]Analog Ground
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20
[/TD]
[TD]LAMBDA1
[/TD]
[TD]Lambda Sensor Bank 1
[/TD]
[TD]0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD]CANH
[/TD]
[TD]CAN High
[/TD]
[TD]To PC comms DB9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22
[/TD]
[TD]CANL
[/TD]
[TD]CAN Low
[/TD]
[TD]To PC comms DB9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23
[/TD]
[TD]PROG
[/TD]
[TD]Program Enable
[/TD]
[TD]To PC comms DB9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24
[/TD]
[TD]RELAY1
[/TD]
[TD]Relay Output
[/TD]
[TD]User Programmable Relay Function
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]25
[/TD]
[TD]RELAY2
[/TD]
[TD]Fuel Pump Relay Output
[/TD]
[TD]Relay Output (Fuel Pump & O2 Heater Relay)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26
[/TD]
[TD]PWM1
[/TD]
[TD]Pulse Width Modulated Output 1
[/TD]
[TD]User Configurable Output Function, 5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]27
[/TD]
[TD]PWM2
[/TD]
[TD]Pulse Width Modulated Output 2
[/TD]
[TD]User Configurable Output Function, 5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]28
[/TD]
[TD]AUX1
[/TD]
[TD]Auxiliary Output 1
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29
[/TD]
[TD]AUX2
[/TD]
[TD]Auxiliary Output 2
[/TD]
[TD]5A Protected Output
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30
[/TD]
[TD]LINEAR_GND1
[/TD]
[TD]TPS & MAP Ground
[/TD]
[TD]Analog Ground
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31
[/TD]
[TD]NTC_1
[/TD]
[TD]NTC Sensor Input 1
[/TD]
[TD]Temperature Sensor Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]32
[/TD]
[TD]TPS1
[/TD]
[TD]Throttle Position Sensor Input 1
[/TD]
[TD]0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]33
[/TD]
[TD]MAP
[/TD]
[TD]Manifold Pressure Sensor Input
[/TD]
[TD]0-5V Analog Input
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]34
[/TD]
[TD]VREF1
[/TD]
[TD]TPS & MAP Reference Voltage
[/TD]
[TD]5V Reference
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35
[/TD]
[TD]GROUND
[/TD]
[TD]Power Ground
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[BIGASH]

Sorry mate you are right I think, I couldn't decide between 31 and 29 but then had a feeling 31 was a power although this is all of my head so you will be correct How will you get the info from the ECU though? Do you run aftermarket dash?

 

[Jonny1*2]

No mate, would be through the laptop or gauges at the mo unfortunately. Needs the laptop for NoS (joking )