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Congrats to DanPl6 on cracking 200bhp (rs2 + 197 cams)
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172 cup RS2 - 330ci
I own an RS2'd car so I know for a fact it's definitely improved, I've always loved it, it drives like a diesel but pulls far up the rev limit. So I don't see how I can be gullible?
The gullible ones seem to be the people like yourself jumping aboard the "it doesnt work" bandwagon despite all the massive amount of documented examples from places with unquestionable reputations like SRR who are totally independant and couldnt care less what result you get when you take your car there, they just roller it and tell you the figures, they arent tied to any tuning firm etc so have no loyalties to worry about.
And yet despite that, people STILL decide to believe it wont work cause some wallys on here say so, now THAT is gullible.
what started as a decent thread which was pretty interesting and informative has once again gone to s**t due to the retards of cs.
In this thread it does state that cams affect fuel efficiency, my car running 421 cams got 47mpg at the weekend over 180miles of motorways and mainly back roads whilst being loaded with 4 people and enough stuff/drink to last 4 days. Just saying.
I still want to drive an RS2 car and my car back to back just to see the difference. I do agree on the cams pushing the power up the top of the rev range, the last 1/3 on my car is when it really kicks off.
In this thread it does state that cams affect fuel efficiency, my car running 421 cams got 47mpg at the weekend over 180miles of motorways and mainly back roads whilst being loaded with 4 people and enough stuff/drink to last 4 days. Just saying.
I still want to drive an RS2 car and my car back to back just to see the difference. I do agree on the cams pushing the power up the top of the rev range, the last 1/3 on my car is when it really kicks off.
Cub.
ClioSport Moderator
This has turned into a festival of fun. I personally think the more products (or combination of products) on the market that offer valid gains when tuning an f4r is good news to all of us. So, I'm chuffed to bits Dan has achieved this result in his. I went for cams because I was changing my belts and I knew in 18months or so I would be ITB'ing it and not using it as a daily anymore.
Individuals need to choose the combo they want for the use / type of 'drive' they want from their car. Constant bitching of one or the other is getting boring.
Individuals need to choose the combo they want for the use / type of 'drive' they want from their car. Constant bitching of one or the other is getting boring.
Damn I've been caught out....
182cup & 172 racecar
This any good then?
This any good then?
Looks good yeah, although the torque does tail off from 6K onwards it doesnt do so by a huge amount and is still at a very good 150 even at the limiter.
Looks like a decent 421 cams and bodies engine for an F4R so I assume its the one in your racer?
As I mentioned earlier in this thread to both Nick and Kelv, personally for an N/A racecar or trackay car I think ITBs and cams are the only sensible option for a clio.
Interesting as the RS2 torque curve follows that of no diesel car i have ever seen :/
The sensation at low revs is similar. It has a slight 'waft' of thrust when dragging the car up from low rpm. Much like the low end peak torque of a TDI.
He doesn't mean it actually drives like a deisel lol.
Would imagine me means that relative to a standard clio it goes well at low rpm, although I do a agree with you laine that its certainly still no 535D, lol
Still waiting for you to point out on J's graph by the way where you think the RS2 doesnt work to increase torque Laine?
Or would you agree that its made gains in torque for the entire rev range compared to the standard car as shown on that graph?
[troll]Similar to saying the RS2 drives great, but it actually doesnt drive great?[/troll]
Chip, i was going to reply, but i really dont want to end up in reams of arguments. Yes no doubt whatsoever that great is pretty good, no one can argue against that, not even me! However if i were to say that was a cherry picked graph (yes i know there are others that have done equally as well), but i've seen some dire results, and some where the stock inlet has absolutely put it to shame.
I guess the same argument can be held against, IK's, Cams and ITB's and any other mods and the subsequent mapping for them bringing out hugely diverse results. However that aside i do look forward to my ride in an RS2'd car some day.
The good results proves the product works well, the bad results prove it isnt idiotproof, Ive seen some TERRIBLE results with them, and likewise I have seen terrible results with fitting cams if they arent mapped correctly as well, thats not the fault of either product.
Ktec for example completely failed to get an RS2 to work on someone on heres car, yet if he had taken it to Mike from MWM to map it, or if I mapped it, then it would have worked well I am sure.
Indeed mate, just cause some people cant map them, doesnt make it a bad product, it just makes those people obviously not good enough to map one, same as if someone on here posted up 165bhp on a set of 438 cams and a standard inlet I would reply saying either their engine was screwed or their map was rubbish.
172 cup RS2 - 330ci
In better words above! Lol
182cup & 172 racecar
If I may offer my two penneth.
There is a lot of money being thrown around in here, talking about RS2 manifolds and throttle bodies. So lets take an average TB conversion, £2500 including ECU? You're looking at a 20-25bhp gain over a healthy 182. Good linear torque curve, and healthy amounts of power, right up to the red line at 7800rpm.
Now I know it's been said many many times about how expensive N/A tuning is, but lets just put this in perspective. For the same amount of money, I can take the S4 and have hybrid turbos or second hand KO4s from the RS4 fitted, RS4 intercoolers or a large centre mount, injectors and a map. Those few bits will quite happily see 380bhp. Which is a gain of 110bhp?
In my eyes, tuning the clio engine is such a waste of money. Which is why my 182 has never even been remapped.
There is a lot of money being thrown around in here, talking about RS2 manifolds and throttle bodies. So lets take an average TB conversion, £2500 including ECU? You're looking at a 20-25bhp gain over a healthy 182. Good linear torque curve, and healthy amounts of power, right up to the red line at 7800rpm.
Now I know it's been said many many times about how expensive N/A tuning is, but lets just put this in perspective. For the same amount of money, I can take the S4 and have hybrid turbos or second hand KO4s from the RS4 fitted, RS4 intercoolers or a large centre mount, injectors and a map. Those few bits will quite happily see 380bhp. Which is a gain of 110bhp?
In my eyes, tuning the clio engine is such a waste of money. Which is why my 182 has never even been remapped.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Every single RS2 car I have ever mapped has made over 190bhp bar 1 that made 168bhp.
The car in question was investigated and had very low compression on 2 cylinders. The problem was resolved and the car brought back to me for some mapping tweaks and then also made over 190bhp!
As chip says, Some good results generally means good product, Some bad means badly installed or other faults elsewhere. Especially on a product like the RS2 where every base manifold, every carbon plenum, every back plate, is made by the same company, on the same Jig or mould and assembled by the same person.
The car in question was investigated and had very low compression on 2 cylinders. The problem was resolved and the car brought back to me for some mapping tweaks and then also made over 190bhp!
As chip says, Some good results generally means good product, Some bad means badly installed or other faults elsewhere. Especially on a product like the RS2 where every base manifold, every carbon plenum, every back plate, is made by the same company, on the same Jig or mould and assembled by the same person.
Ph2 1.2, Ph1 172
Great results Dan, would love to get mine to a decent level but i still fancy going down the forced induction route
Right okay, so I understand about why people use a RS2 etc etc.
I've got a question, I'm not doubting anything for a second and have never driven an RS2 equipped 172/182..
If for instance you have a 172 with an RS2 fitted and it's mapped and it makes 190bhp 150ftlbs, to some people they would think this is a low torque figure for these engines.. But due to the curve and how it holds on to the torque, it's awesome..
If you have the same car with the same engine and a standard inlet and cams etc, its mapped and makes 190bhp 168ftlbs, obviously 168ftlbs is peak torque but if it made over 150ftlbs through the rest of the rev range, why would this not be a better option?
I'm genuinely interested in what a few people have to say on the matter.. It makes no difference to me at the moment. I'm just interested in what people think..
Thanks
I've got a question, I'm not doubting anything for a second and have never driven an RS2 equipped 172/182..
If for instance you have a 172 with an RS2 fitted and it's mapped and it makes 190bhp 150ftlbs, to some people they would think this is a low torque figure for these engines.. But due to the curve and how it holds on to the torque, it's awesome..
If you have the same car with the same engine and a standard inlet and cams etc, its mapped and makes 190bhp 168ftlbs, obviously 168ftlbs is peak torque but if it made over 150ftlbs through the rest of the rev range, why would this not be a better option?
I'm genuinely interested in what a few people have to say on the matter.. It makes no difference to me at the moment. I'm just interested in what people think..
Thanks
The S4 will cost you a fortune to use on track, they rip through expensive tyres at a hell of a rate and they drink fuel like they have a hole in the tank if used hard at 380bhp as well.
I agree that an RS2 is expensive, and Throttle bodies even more so, but I think you need to look not just at purchase costs but at resale costs too.
REALISTIC figures for an RS2:
Buy it, fit it in a couple of hours and have it mapped by Mike from MWM is about 1500 quid or so all in. Plus a couple of hundred for uprated mounts.
Resale price is going to be about 900-1000 or so, and over 100 for the mounts, and Mike will put your old map back on after you refit your standard inlet for basically not much more than a drink.
So to have an RS2 on your car giving you an extra 20 odd bhp and a healthily extended useable rev range (7500 most I would advise unless you fit rod bolts) is going to cost you around 700 quid all in, plus a couple of afternoons of your time to fit and remove it.
Thats a seriously good value upgrade if you are going to own your car for 18 months IMHO. And if you buy secondhand, you can do it for FAR less than that, probably sub 400 quid realistically.
Throttle bodies are a bit worse on cost of ownership unless you buy secondhand in the first place as they depreciate more, they cost more generally in mapping and they require chopping about of the loom and/or swapping the throttle for a manual one in most cases.
But even still with bodies, you spend out your 3K ish for cams and ascociated bits and mapping or roughly 2.5K if using secondhand bodies, and still see 2000 of it back.
Cams you are looking at about 1300 quid fitted and mapped for new, or about 1100 fitted and mapped for secondhand, but the resale value is only around 400 quid, and you are probably going to have to spend that to get them swapped back to standard realistically, so essentially once you have spent the money on them its gone forever, not quite as bad if you are having your belts done anyway of course.
Exception is if you can do them yourself of course, so for me or Danpl6 or Mike etc a set of cams is 400 secondhand or 600 new, and get 400 back selling them, so only cost is 100 odd quid for a belt kit twice to fit and remove them and some of our time.
Thats the biggest thing that the numpties earlier on this thread banging on about the cost of an RS2 versus Cams seem to forget, you spend a couple of hundred more on the RS2 initially, but you then get most of your money back when you sell it on, also unlike cams if you have an engine die, the RS2 wont get killed by swarf but the cams potentially will.
So yes I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend out, but I would argue if you spend it the right way, you will get a hell of a lot of it back, so can enjoy a moderate performance increase for very little overall cost, with your S4, it will be cheaper to tune, but you'll see your costs per trackday being MUCH higher than one of us having just as much fun in our tweaked clio
IF it made 150ft lbs for the rest of the whole rev range with just a set of cams on a standard inlet, then it would be great having the extra peak power and getting the spread of torque as well, but that doesnt happen. IF it did, I would buy some for sure and sell the RS2, or better still use the magic cams with the RS2 as welll!
Even Laines freaky cup when he cammed it was down to under 120lbft by 7800rpm I would wager, so not exactly ideal on a trackday and the fact it peaks at 168 or whatever in the first place makes it feel even more like it has died, dont get me wrong it wont be any slower than an rs2 car, but personally I find that sort of "heres loads of torque, now im taking it all away again" a more frustrating way to make the same progress than "here is a moderate amount of torque, and you can keep it as long as you want".
The S4 will cost you a fortune to use on track, they rip through expensive tyres at a hell of a rate and they drink fuel like they have a hole in the tank if used hard at 380bhp as well.
So yes I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend out, but I would argue if you spend it the right way, you will get a hell of a lot of it back, so can enjoy a moderate performance increase for very little overall cost, with your S4, it will be cheaper to tune, but you'll see your costs per trackday being MUCH higher than one of us having just as much fun in our tweaked clio
This is why I wouldn't track the S4, nor would I spend stupid amounts on making it unpractical as a road car. I've still got the Clio to rag around
I see what you're saying about resale costs, and that in theory you can recover a lot of the initial purchase, but it's still a lot of money to shell out in the first place for not a lot of gain.
....and while we're on the subject of running costs
since the end of october all I've done is put fuel and oil in it! The clio cost me on average, about £100 a month on parts, spread over the last 18 months. Be it alternator, gearbox, injector, brakes, bearings etc...This is what annoyed me most in the end with the Clio. Not hugely expensive parts, but it constantly needed things! The relatively small costs built up massively.
mikes86
ClioSport Club Member
182 track **** & MX5
I have 438's in mine, 190bhp & 162lb ft peak, from 3500 to 6500 its above 150lb ft. Granted from 6500 to 7500 it drops like a stone to about 125lb ft and from 2500 to 3500 its around 135lb ft. (those figures are from memory because i can't find the graph, will see if i can get another copy of it.)
I've been dying to try an ITB car as im very interested in getting them next, just can't find anybody local willing to let me drive one! I got cams over an RS2 because my car needed to go in for a full service + cambelt!
yeecup
ClioSport Club Member
mk8Fiesta ST,172 cup
Just make one yourself, use 4 kitchen rolls and Sellotape them together, use some fairly worn foot socks as filters then sprinkle them with pixi dust, watch as supercars disappear in your rear view mirror as the 150lb of torque for a few extra rpm propel you into 1985 and transform you into Marty mcfly for fun and adventures with the doc.....
Stop quoting peak figures, its the spread that counts!!!
Great results. I've been in a couple of RS2'd cars and the power delivery is great with it holding the torque from low rpm up to the rev limiter.
Why do you care so much? Think Chip is right about you being touched by someone with initials JMS, what's Jimmy Savile's middle name?
Why do you care so much? Think Chip is right about you being touched by someone with initials JMS, what's Jimmy Savile's middle name?
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Bigger plenum and longer trumpets you say?
In parts this thread has been very interesting but I hate slipping through all the unnecessary clutter.
Our torque curve drops off at 7k with our inlet. However, not sure if this is partly due to the lack of ignition advance due to very high compression? Iirc it's only running 13-16 deg adv.
In parts this thread has been very interesting but I hate slipping through all the unnecessary clutter.
Our torque curve drops off at 7k with our inlet. However, not sure if this is partly due to the lack of ignition advance due to very high compression? Iirc it's only running 13-16 deg adv.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Bigger plenum and longer trumpets you say?
In parts this thread has been very interesting but I hate slipping through all the unnecessary clutter.
Our torque curve drops off at 7k with our inlet. However, not sure if this is partly due to the lack of ignition advance due to very high compression? Iirc it's only running 13-16 deg adv.
WOW! What CR are you running?????
Our turbo Clio that chip now owns ran 15deg with a bar of boost and 10:1 CR!!! May of even been a touch more than that at higher revs! F4R's generally love ign advance.
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Sorry Mike. Missed your post. We think its running around 13:1. Possibly more. Didn't know how much the head had been skimmed:-S
we are toying with E85 conversion so we can get the advance where it should be. Do you think advance will improve output by a great margin?
we are toying with E85 conversion so we can get the advance where it should be. Do you think advance will improve output by a great margin?
yeecup
ClioSport Club Member
mk8Fiesta ST,172 cup
i really dont care, its call taking the piss. maybe u should give chip a call and see if he will let u touch him, seems to me a lot of people on this thread would love to do the same. so much love for the famous rs2, how many people actually bought one? LOL at people wanting a group buy, from who????????? fpmsl. looking at some other threads freds cams give more torque than an rs2, and where it matters, low down in the rev range, we dont all rev our cars to 6500rpm innit, vtec yo!!!!!
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