1985michael182
ClioSport Club Member
What about some castor adjustable, camber adjustable, bottom arms to compliment the RC kits ?
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TomoTek - 182 Track Build here we come!...
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
I'm thinking about some castor/camber adjustable top mounts. We want to be able to quickly change the setup as we have highlighted that as an area we are weak at. So having the adjustment at the top means we can leave the car on its wheels and do all the adjustment with the bonnet open. I also want to be able to change spring rates quickly so we can change between wet/dry.
So I might also make it possible to replace the front springs without having to take the dampers off the car!
We are looking into lower bottom arms too. We want to replace the powerflex bushes with some proper spherical bearings.
That means taking them out from the top right? 
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
Uprights!
do something cool machiny, TIG weldy with uprights!
Subframes!
do something cool machiny, TIG weldy with Subframes!
"I'll just go sit in a corner and be quiet now"
do something cool machiny, TIG weldy with uprights!
Subframes!
do something cool machiny, TIG weldy with Subframes!
"I'll just go sit in a corner and be quiet now"
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
That means taking them out from the top right?
Yeah exactly.. I want to be able to remove the top mounts quickly and slide the springs up and out the top.
I'd love to be able to do some custom subframes and wider track uprights which radial mounted calipers and proper brake ducting!. just not sure people would want to pay the price tag that they would come with haha!
Clio RS
One of the best projects here! Great Job!
1985michael182
ClioSport Club Member
Will these top plates be camber and castor adjustable?
Aswell as removable?
Removable means removing the strut tops turrets and welding brackets in to hold the top plates in?
Aswell as removable?
Removable means removing the strut tops turrets and welding brackets in to hold the top plates in?
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
Psst...me again...
Chambers_RS
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172 Cup&Leon K1
Yes, put my names down and wheeere do I send the deposit
1985michael182
ClioSport Club Member
Is that independent rear suspension?
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
yup S1600 rear end
Twingo 1??
ClioSport Club Member
Twingo 133 Cup,
Mm sure the clio and Twingo share the same rear beam. Could open the market for 2 types of car.
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
I think i'm going to make the top mount have increased but 'fixed' castor but then fully adjustable camber.
Could make options of castor adjustment though, but really you want the max that is allowable in the package, so the 'max' castor option would be most popular i'd imagine.
We will be chopping the top of the strut tower off and welding a bracket back on to hold the top mount yes. I want to incorporate a 'bearing cartridge' so that you can fit just that to the original car and then bolt it to more bespoke camber adjustable top mount too. multi function etc.
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
I have seen this before!.. It is a good idea, would need a decent ARB to go with it.
Made sense on the rally cars because of the wheel travels they needed, and the extreme bumpy roads to have independent suspension. Not 100% sure how much time you would gain on a track focused Clio. Only one way to find out though
how many shall i design and get made haha?Regs are a bit vague on if it would be allowed for racing:
5.12.1 Modification to the suspension is subject to the following conditions:
The spring and damper configuration and all of the original mounting points must be retained and used in the operation of the suspension except that coil over dampers may be used with adjustable spring platforms.
Twingo 1??
ClioSport Club Member
Twingo 133 Cup,
I would of thought even if you couldn't use it in some racing championships. There is getting enough clio's in rallying to possibly make it viable if the cost isn't to high. I know the rear can be an issue on the clio/twingo on bumpy stuff.
There is some good videos of Chris Ingram in the r2 twingo proving that the rear needs sorting on the Twingo during a rally in Ireland.
There is some good videos of Chris Ingram in the r2 twingo proving that the rear needs sorting on the Twingo during a rally in Ireland.
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
I have seen this before!.. It is a good idea, would need a decent ARB to go with it.
Made sense on the rally cars because of the wheel travels they needed, and the extreme bumpy roads to have independent suspension. Not 100% sure how much time you would gain on a track focused Clio. Only one way to find out though
Regs are a bit vague on if it would be allowed for racing:
5.12.1 Modification to the suspension is subject to the following conditions:
The spring and damper configuration and all of the original mounting points must be retained and used in the operation of the suspension except that coil over dampers may be used with adjustable spring platforms.
Sooo you can use the 'original mounting points' in a other location? 😉
Twingo 1??
ClioSport Club Member
Twingo 133 Cup,
This is the video, you can see how much the Twingo doesn't like the bumps.
Wtf am I doing building a Twingo for bumpy tarmac lol.
Wtf am I doing building a Twingo for bumpy tarmac lol.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Look how young he looks there! Got a lot of time for Ingram, seems a good lad. Done really well this year to win the ERC title.
There are definitely gains to be had by ditching the twist beam on rally cars. All the teams did it back in the F2 days. As you say, there are good gains in travel for one thing, but twist beams are also a pain in that your toe change is non-linear, which isn't helpful, especially on rough surfaces where you want the car to be predictable. On a track car, where the travel is much reduced, you wouldn't suffer the effects so much, so the benefits are more limited. As @Tomotek says, you'd need a decent ARB along with it, because you lose the roll resistance of the twist beam once you go independent. Easy enough to fit an ARB to the back though of course, it would just need to be thicker than the usual PMS/Whiteline type deals. The ones on my F2 car are mahoosive, front and rear.
You may have to move the fuel tank into the car too, which adds to the cost.
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
I'll leave these here then, nothing to see really...
Chambers_RS
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172 Cup&Leon K1
You see PMS do these. I have a set aswell if you wanted to look at them before making you own.
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
Yeah I’ve seen the PMS version, with the big plates (adjustable castor if I remember, but not camber?) doesn’t allow the springs to be removed out the top, which is something I’m keen to do... don’t want to have to remove the damper completely from the car.. appreciate the offer though, thanks
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
I haven’t yet, we will be having a go next year tho.. we have friends running clios who run them tho and they are a lot better than the Toyos... DZ03Gs yeah
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
A lot of info on these.. I’ve got some ideas so I’ll throw something together and post it on here and see what you all think!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
robzracing
ClioSport Club Member
Aren't the Toyos a control tyre in the TDC though?
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
Yeah they are.. come rain or shine!.. grrr
You can run what you like in the Trackday Trophy races though, and we plan to enter a couple of those next year too. SO would look to try the Direzzas
what do you run in your races?
robzracing
ClioSport Club Member
Been running AO50s for last 2 seasons but just moved to AO52s for the last race of the season and they were epic.
(Twice the price though)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(Twice the price though)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
They’re the control tyre for the MSVT Super Cup now the AO52s .. might try them out next season in a one off race.. any more thoughts on what your entering next season?
Nafoff
ClioSport Club Member
keeping an eye for the sloppy seconds 😜😂😂😂
Nafoff
ClioSport Club Member
Made sense on the rally cars because of the wheel travels they needed, and the extreme bumpy roads to have independent suspension. Not 100% sure how much time you would gain on a track focused Clio. Only one way to find out though
From all I have heard from people racing clio’s (and other fwd cars) is that they set up the car to basically drag the rear around, and this is the best way to set them up. Do you think the outlay to develop/manufacture these on a one off or group buy basis would be worth it for the benefit?
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
The benefit would be that with independent rears it allows you to run a softer spring rate and a separate rear arb. But you’d then need either a custom rear arb, or better still, a blade rear arb to allow adjustability. But, then you’re into research and development just for the arb. No such thing as a one size fits all.
Outlay vs benefit is a difficult one really, but, I was told that the standard hubs wouldn’t stand up to the roll centre correction, and there wouldn’t be any noticeable difference....I was also told a carbon r3 maxi evo wouldn’t fit in the engine bay of a mk2....
I guess I’d say it’s worth it just to see if there are any benefits!
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
I think as Mark said it gives the ability to fine tune the setup and have a more stable rear end, but with the ARB still have a stiff enough rear end to get the car rotating.
Mark I think you have it spot on.. It all depends on how much effort you want to put in, and with that you can get anything to fit/work.
I've got a growing list of mods to do now lol!. just need some more time
Still got our last two races to write up!
Mark I think you have it spot on.. It all depends on how much effort you want to put in, and with that you can get anything to fit/work.
I've got a growing list of mods to do now lol!. just need some more time
Still got our last two races to write up!
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
RACE REPORT- RND#5 TDC Donington GP (21/09/2019)
We arrived at Donington feeling good after our test the week before. Weather was looking fresh and sunny. Moods were good.
We setup in the morning and flew through scrutineering, just leaving us to attend the normal drivers briefing before we got ready for qualifying. Upon collecting the transponder from the office near race control, we could hear some concerned voices, and the Clark of the course stating he needed to speak to the event organiser due to " a big problem"! Sounded ominous.
All became clear in the drivers briefing. We were told we would not be competing around the GP circuit but instead running the National circuit again, due to a lack of marshalls. Bit frustrating, but still happy to be running full stop and not having the event cancelled.
They were also going to not man certain posts around the track, which would become a slight issue in the race as people started to massively cut corners as they could get away with it.
We were as usual the first group of cars on circuit for qualifying, so the track was cold. Ben went out first and put in some great laps, commenting on how good the car felt, especially now through the medium/slow speed corners. His time put us on provisional pole position in class at the half way point before the driver changes.
Ben Rnd #1 Best Quali Time: 1:23.501
Ben Rnd #5 Best Quali Time: 1:22.357
On comparing his lap times from earlier in the year (very similar track conditions), he managed over 1 second improvement!
Normally, we see the faster times coming in the 2nd half of qauli as the cars and tyres warm up and the track evolves. So we were expecting to drop the times in my stint.
I started well, getting into the low 1:23s straight out the box. before getting down to 1:22.454, but I was really struggling with snap oversteer coming into the medium speed corners. It felt like the rear tyres were starting to overheat as the track got hotter. So I pitted to have the pressures checked, Indeed the rear tyre pressures had shot up over 0.4bar higher than we normally run. So an adjustment and out I went. Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it back round in time to beat the chequered flag for one more lap.
Scott Rnd #1 Best Quali Time: 1:22.465
Scott Rnd #5 Best Quali Time: 1:22.454
Unfortunately the new entry for this round of a Porsche 968 managed to beat Bens time. getting a 1:22.322, so 0.035s faster!.. close!
One of my more interesting oversteer moments!
RACE>>>>
Strategy before this race was to go for the win, so we planned to be a bit more aggressive. Again I would be starting this race.
The lights went out and I got a good start. The Porsche from class pole being RWD got a great start and managed to overtake the B class Caterham into the first corner. I was under pressure from the class B clio from behind who got past with his extra power on the run down the craner curves. The Caterham, now in front of me, seemed to slow quickly going through the flat our craner curves so we touched (later on it became apparent this un-clipped one of my bumper attachments) but i got past.
So It was now only the class B Clio between me and the lead Porsche. On the run up to Coppice I decided to try to go round the outside of the Clio, but soon realised there was no grip on the marbles and understeered onto the grass, lucky to keep it out the gravel. I carried on but had lost a 6 places!
As I braked into the following chicane the now loose front bumper made a bid for freedom, unknown to me at the time. I came back round on my 2nd lap to see it sat nicely facing me in the gravel track at the chicane!
The next 15 minutes were spent battling closely with the slower Civic of White Knight Racing and the Clio Cup car of Simon Harrison. Trading places with Simon as we both tried to get past the very wide Civic!
Unfortunately at around 13:00 minutes into the video (Lap of Incident) you will see a collision between myself and the Civic. His lines had been questionable the laps leading up the the contact, never really hitting any apex. I had had a really good run through the old hairpin, and as we came up to McLeans the civic driver braked and turned in very late opening the door for me to dive up the inside, so I did (cutting the corner probably a little too much) however the Civic driver decided to try to make the corner and late apex (not really sure why, as he was aiming for the right of the track on exit) so we collided with my front wheel hitting the drivers door hard!. Followed by a trip through the gravel.
Upon returning to the track it was noticeable that the tracking and geo on the front left had taken a pounding and had adjusted, as the car was under steering horribly on RH turns (which donington is 95% made up of). So I pitted straight away as the pit window was open. The lads set about making sure the car was still safe to drive, which it was.
Ben then took over, instantly complaining on the radio of the horrible US that he was suffering. He had to spend the next 30 minutes frustratingly nursing the car round to finish in 16th Overall and P6 in class. (after the race we measured 0deg of camber on that wheel and a lot of toe in)
Not the race we had hoped for but the car is certainly showing potential of getting back on the podium again, and showing progress from the start of the season.
We arrived at Donington feeling good after our test the week before. Weather was looking fresh and sunny. Moods were good.
We setup in the morning and flew through scrutineering, just leaving us to attend the normal drivers briefing before we got ready for qualifying. Upon collecting the transponder from the office near race control, we could hear some concerned voices, and the Clark of the course stating he needed to speak to the event organiser due to " a big problem"! Sounded ominous.
All became clear in the drivers briefing. We were told we would not be competing around the GP circuit but instead running the National circuit again, due to a lack of marshalls. Bit frustrating, but still happy to be running full stop and not having the event cancelled.
They were also going to not man certain posts around the track, which would become a slight issue in the race as people started to massively cut corners as they could get away with it.
We were as usual the first group of cars on circuit for qualifying, so the track was cold. Ben went out first and put in some great laps, commenting on how good the car felt, especially now through the medium/slow speed corners. His time put us on provisional pole position in class at the half way point before the driver changes.
Ben Rnd #1 Best Quali Time: 1:23.501
Ben Rnd #5 Best Quali Time: 1:22.357
On comparing his lap times from earlier in the year (very similar track conditions), he managed over 1 second improvement!
Normally, we see the faster times coming in the 2nd half of qauli as the cars and tyres warm up and the track evolves. So we were expecting to drop the times in my stint.
I started well, getting into the low 1:23s straight out the box. before getting down to 1:22.454, but I was really struggling with snap oversteer coming into the medium speed corners. It felt like the rear tyres were starting to overheat as the track got hotter. So I pitted to have the pressures checked, Indeed the rear tyre pressures had shot up over 0.4bar higher than we normally run. So an adjustment and out I went. Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it back round in time to beat the chequered flag for one more lap.
Scott Rnd #1 Best Quali Time: 1:22.465
Scott Rnd #5 Best Quali Time: 1:22.454
Unfortunately the new entry for this round of a Porsche 968 managed to beat Bens time. getting a 1:22.322, so 0.035s faster!.. close!
One of my more interesting oversteer moments!
RACE>>>>
Strategy before this race was to go for the win, so we planned to be a bit more aggressive. Again I would be starting this race.
The lights went out and I got a good start. The Porsche from class pole being RWD got a great start and managed to overtake the B class Caterham into the first corner. I was under pressure from the class B clio from behind who got past with his extra power on the run down the craner curves. The Caterham, now in front of me, seemed to slow quickly going through the flat our craner curves so we touched (later on it became apparent this un-clipped one of my bumper attachments) but i got past.
So It was now only the class B Clio between me and the lead Porsche. On the run up to Coppice I decided to try to go round the outside of the Clio, but soon realised there was no grip on the marbles and understeered onto the grass, lucky to keep it out the gravel. I carried on but had lost a 6 places!
As I braked into the following chicane the now loose front bumper made a bid for freedom, unknown to me at the time. I came back round on my 2nd lap to see it sat nicely facing me in the gravel track at the chicane!
The next 15 minutes were spent battling closely with the slower Civic of White Knight Racing and the Clio Cup car of Simon Harrison. Trading places with Simon as we both tried to get past the very wide Civic!
Unfortunately at around 13:00 minutes into the video (Lap of Incident) you will see a collision between myself and the Civic. His lines had been questionable the laps leading up the the contact, never really hitting any apex. I had had a really good run through the old hairpin, and as we came up to McLeans the civic driver braked and turned in very late opening the door for me to dive up the inside, so I did (cutting the corner probably a little too much) however the Civic driver decided to try to make the corner and late apex (not really sure why, as he was aiming for the right of the track on exit) so we collided with my front wheel hitting the drivers door hard!. Followed by a trip through the gravel.
Upon returning to the track it was noticeable that the tracking and geo on the front left had taken a pounding and had adjusted, as the car was under steering horribly on RH turns (which donington is 95% made up of). So I pitted straight away as the pit window was open. The lads set about making sure the car was still safe to drive, which it was.
Ben then took over, instantly complaining on the radio of the horrible US that he was suffering. He had to spend the next 30 minutes frustratingly nursing the car round to finish in 16th Overall and P6 in class. (after the race we measured 0deg of camber on that wheel and a lot of toe in)
Not the race we had hoped for but the car is certainly showing potential of getting back on the podium again, and showing progress from the start of the season.
Attachments
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
This is one of the reasons I prefer rallying - at least if I bin it, it's my fault, and not because of someone else not knowing what they're doing
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
Championship regs are Toyo R888R in all conditions.
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
Yeah he wasn’t happy, didn’t see him after the race but saw he’d written some ‘interesting’ comments about me on Facebook in the Civic Owners Page as he was after a new door [emoji51] (not getting dragged into all that)
Simon in the Clio pulled the same move on me the lap or two before, but I saw him coming in my mirrors and just ran wide and gave him space.. then got the cut back on him at the next corner.
As James said, R888Rs for everything
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tomotek
ClioSport Club Member
Hi mate, we’re running in class C again in the TDC. Want to give it another shot this year.
Supercup run in another race as the grids are two big to combine them (used to be the same race) the supercup control tyres are Yokos now too, not the Toyos
What rough power at the wheels are you running? Must be decent to run in class A?
